There are still some people out there who can recognize the most beautiful and attractive aspects of the human spirit when they see them.
But the key drive of our society right now seems to be to pollute them, subvert them, convert them into capital or power. Rather than focus on the Bright Vision, we gorge ourselves on the dark vision. (Ie. Popular entertainment including news)
Now it’s your turn. Expand on what you feel I am talking about, and add your two cents worth! Consider:
-examples
– the pervasiveness of the darkening process
– why our species finds the negative, the destructive, the isolating self-centeredness so attractive.
– ways it entrap us/owns us
– possible ways to turn it around
© 2026 – SoulSequel
108 responses to “Are we on a madcap race to lose the most valuable aspects of our Humanity?”
The question becomes “who’s to say what’s valuable?” Things change, certainly. That is inescapable, Yet values change over time. What may have seemed indispensable in one time can become less than a second thought in another. By gripping the values, the thoughts, the concepts of yesteryear saying “this must not be lost,” we loose sight of the amazing new things happening now. Also, you need to realize some values, thought patterns and concepts go in cycles. Maybe what you’re seeing is the pendulum swinging one way when in another generation or 2 it’ll have gone back.
@Jear77
I should think that we both could agree that what is truly valuable, is that which doesn’t die or pass away.
This is broad, objective, idealistic, and beyond time. Because God is!
If all we seek is the narrow, the subjective, the individualistic, the dated . . . Our god is just our selves, individually or collectively. And that little god is owned by Death.
@griz but that is your opinion. As the saying goes, they’re like @$$#oL3$ and they all stink. Keep in mind that I don’t see the evidence for god…
@Jear77
All one needs is a few decades experience under their belt to see the lot of things of value from the past are slipping.
@griz How do you know they won’t return? And if, indeed, the bible is true… that should be a GOOD thing (at least according to you) that the bible’s prophecies are coming true… that the world is becoming worse, yes? You can revel in the fact that society is falling apart, becoming worse!
@Jear77
Our default Human Nature of being controlled by our instincts and urges (the flesh) is very predictable and omnidirectional. It follows the same path of entropy that all physical processes do.
I see religion doing the fire-escape thinking: celebrating their anticipated easy passage to “something better”, and who cares if their current task in commission is left unfinished?
Why do you think Christians like hiding in churches where most people are more or less on the same page? It’s less work! And they can close the doors to pretend that there is no work to be done out there!
Selfishness has taken them. Who wouldn’t want to advance right to the proverbial feast, and forget about all that nasty work in the field harvesting it?
Is any of this clicking? You keep asking very good questions. Questions that I recognize myself having once asked.
@griz my point was that if you’re right you’ll be completely vindicated. So that should make you among the happiest, most joyful of people to see all your naysayers utterly destroyed. So instead of worrying about “woe is this generation,” wringing your hands you you should be jumping for joy, dancing a jig. And at that point I won’t have anything to say. And I’m completely fine with that. I’ll live (or be forever dead) with the consequences. Such is life.
@Jear77
I see no joy in anyone destroyed. My joy and peace can know the sadness of those choosing destruction. If it was just reactionary happiness it could not. And reactionary happiness is what sees pleasure in the destruction of ones adversaries; and also in one being “proven right”.
I seem to have less and less of this reaction over time.
I know this is a conundrum to our flesh.
If you were completely fine with your choice, you would not always be hashing it over in your mind.
@griz do you have the ability to read minds? Are you a psychology major? If the answer to both of those questions is no, you have no idea how my mind works. You may assume… but always remember the breakdown of the word ass/u/me.
@Jear77
The spirit of a person is very apparent in their words and actions.
How could it not be?
We’ve perhaps become too reliant on “”experts”” to explain the meaning of even the simplest things to us. And they morph into “religious leaders” when we come to rely on and generate them so.
@griz or… it couldbe all an act. You don’t know which is which
@Jear77
Time tells.
Consider that “an act” acted out enough soon becomes that person’s reality. What is meant to deceive other . . . eventually deceives the deceiver: catches them in their own web they weave.
That is the nature of the spirit of deceit.
@griz and yet according to you, the ultimate deceit that is life, you don’t even give it a second thought. Strange indeed.
@Jear77
Are you saying that your life is deceit?
Mine is more a preparation and a growing participation in what is to come.
Almost exactly like physical childhood, or any training process is.
There is deceit afoot. The adversary of life is also called the deceiver. Your religious background brings you to a conclusion of deceit?
Interesting, yes?
Religion is one of the deceivers great accomplishments
@griz No… I’m saying the BELIEVER’S life is the ultimate falsehood, based off the fact that you can’t see the results of your preparation. Where’s the proof? You can’t see into the realm after death and talk to those who went before you. You can’t see heaven. Preparation needs to have something provable. You add money to the bank and it is there to withdraw. You have a bank statement. Not so with this preparation. In fact, in a court of law, this preparation that you brag about wouldn’t be admissible in any way, shape or form.
ALSO Why do people who do scientific experiments fail to find that things of spiritual nature exist (i.e. answered prayer as compared to a group that does is not being prayed for)? ADD TO THAT the fact that if a belief were THAT true, there’s something across the board that could be said about those that followed it which could be proven by EVERYONE who ran across them no matter how briefly… be it another driver on the street, their coworkers, or the person in back of them at a grocery store. This is simply not the case.
@Jear77
Belief in what, would seem to be the key. Is it humanly inspired; or Divinely-inspired?
ALL religion is humanly inspired. It is a form of self-worship: venerating [dying ] human agency as what will save us . . . From ourselves! Despite our accumulated knowledge cleverness and gadgets we’re still falling into the same personal and relational pitfalls as our ancestors from thousands of years ago!
We’ve already established and over established that religions of self are not just worthless but poisonous. Do we still need to rehash this; or is it time to move on to the next step?
What evidence of the mind has science proven? Does this mean we are all mindless?
Eventually we have to get beyond the religion of just worshipping ourselves.
@griz Belief in the divine IS poisonous… EVEN if the divine exists.
A belief that says everything will be OK… even when it’s clearly not with all the problems in the world… problems that wouldn’t exist in the first place if things had been set up as they are.
A belief that says that there are forces that we can neither detect nor truly know if we are being influenced by literally ANY method(s).
A belief that doesn’t strive to solve the problems of this world so we make the next generation better instead of leaving things at the status quo.
A belief that can’t guarantee even if we do believe where we’ll end up.
A divine that set up mortality instead of ANYTHING else… leaving the pain of loss… EVEN should heaven be true… but even THAT is problematic because there’s hell so the loss will be permanent.
A divine that forces a choice between family and it… even actively encouraging said divisions.
A divine that somehow NEEDED to sacrifice his son instead of simply forgiving everyone without a second thought.
A divine that wiped everyone except one family off the face of the earth with a flood.
A divine that inspired the nation of Israel to go to war and eradicate entire nations as well as inspired the crusades
A divine that either causes or does not prevent major tragedies both in terms of weather and earthquake and fire and in terms of personal loss – financial problems, disease, war, and mutations that kill.
So with all these things as a base, I don’t know how ANYONE can wish to serve such a sick being. I disagree even with the concept of such a thing even if it were true with everything I am or will ever hope to be.
@Jear77
I would counter that it is just religion that is poisonous.
Whether they boast people in fancy robes managing a deity for us unto salvation; or people in plain robes managing our current collective understanding for us unto salvation.
It’s not the science or the deity “that make it evil” (Mwa ha haa)!. Both can be removed from the religious equation and still have the same toxifying and mind-narrowing result..
(That’s just the basic scientific process of removing variables to isolate true causation)
I would assert that this is the long and the short of it. Religious process — regardless of trappings and accouterments –is the true culprit.
@griz so throw the concept of god/ life out. You’d be much better off without it.
@Jear77
I’d be dead without it. God quite literally saved my life.
@griz but if you believe in heaven, you’d be in a better place. You bit off your own nose to spite your own face!
@Jear77
What if I’m already in the best possible place?
( you were still relying on a very religious definition of Heaven as some pie-in-the-sky future event)
And coincidentally, are you living under the belief that you are in the worst possible place?
@griz It’s NOT the best possible place because we have death in this world, which is not a good thing. But it is ALSO far from the worst. But for you to say heaven is here/ now… is fallacious at best.
@Jear77
If you are totally convinced that it is so, that’s what it will continue to be for you.
There is also life in this world; and a quality of life unlike one you seem to be able to imagine. The greater folly would seem to be not to take advantage of it. Even if physical death is the guaranteed end of all possibilities.
AND the fallacy only increases, if physical death is NOT the absolute end of all possibilities.
There is a very real common sense to a life of continuing possibilities. One reaps enough benefits of it in the now, that it’s worth it even if there is nothing else to come!
@griz just because science can calculate the probability of me dissolving here and reforming there doesn’t seem to make it any more (or less) probable.
@Jear77
Even with science at its current best, things can still take us by surprise.
One of the things that really impresses me about walking in Christ Spirit, is just how frequently extremely improbable things happen.
Even when aspects of events might be explainable by science, things like timing and improbability, and impressive strings of them, really gets one’s attention over time.
@griz you understand that without the ability to prove it, we can’t even determine the probability. You say that it’s 100% (yet strangely enough are unwilling to get there earlier, despite your faith in life…)
@Jear77
I have an advantage to be able to participate and enjoy things “unprove-able” within your current parameters.
Not all things (actually few things that really matter), have handles attached. You cannot “control” them.
You have to just take them as they are.
And perhaps the path I’ve chosen allows me to take and participate and enjoy things far far beyond what you currently allow yourself.
Hope you can join us someday.
@griz if there is something else, I’ll have an eternity to discuss it with the eternal… because the divine that you claim to exist will have an eternity of moral problems to clarify.
I was doing a bit of research on the concept of criminal negligence. This is what Wikipedia says “To constitute a crime, there must be an actus reus (Latin for “guilty act”) accompanied by the mens rea (see concurrence). Negligence shows the least level of culpability, intention being the most serious, and recklessness being of intermediate seriousness, overlapping with gross negligence. The distinction between recklessness and criminal negligence lies in the presence or absence of foresight as to the prohibited consequences. Recklessness is usually described as a ‘malfeasance’ where the defendant knowingly exposes another to the risk of injury.” According to that definition God in the bible is criminally reckless because he exposed the entire human race to evils of every stripe, to mortality which disallows us to see the spiritual realm through our physical senses through the creation of the garden of eden, placement of mankind there, coupled with the creation and placement of the woman (mind you I’m not a misogynist, I’m simply saying that this is what the creation story states). If the god of the bible is all knowing, that means that he knew in advance that mankind would sin by the very creation of such a creature, such a situation. And that you don’t see the criminal nature of the act is beyond baffling.
@Jear77
I’m not without questions myself.
But without being facetious, I really thing that “only those who participate, get to participate”. You’ve opted out, by your own admission.
I think people hate the Bible . . . or anything else that smacks of guilt . . . because it doesn’t “let them be God”. It implies that there is accountability beyond just selfishness.
In any reality I can conceive (and perhaps I can conceive more than most?), the inability to see something, doesn’t mean that something doesn’t exist as a result of one’s actions. “Not seeing something” ahead of time, doesn’t make it non-existent.
And again, we tend to “hate” anything that implies that perhaps we SHOULD have “seen that coming”. Wisdom is a double-edged sword. Perhaps the thought is that it should therefore never be taken up?
But even limited temporal Human jurisprudence accepts that “ignorance is no excuse”?
You’re still on a tear of “judging the parents”?
Perhaps take this “out of the eternal” and back to the temporal?
@griz I’m opting out because it’s an all or nothing thing. If you do it 99.99% that .01% you’re lacking will send you to hell. Add to that fact I’m uninterested in a god who can’t even cover my basic needs at any level. Quid quo pro. You scratch my back, I scratch yours. I wouldn’t even be able to afford a room (let along a private place of my own) with how much I get. What I get in two weeks, I need to get in a day in order to make basic living expenses. And we’re up to $225,000 yearly.
In regards to accountability… if there is a god, why should he not be held morally accountable for its actions? I know I do things wrong… but guess what? I not only accept that about myself, I embrace it as part of being not only human, but the learning process. But above and beyond that… no matter what mistakes, problems I bring to the table matter nothing in the grand scheme of things. The moment I die, nothing matters, all the consequences of what I did disappears. Life goes on (and that’s the one of the biggest problems I have with judgement). The god, as presented in the bible, is neither able to learn NOR is able to correct what’s been done.
And what’s amazing is that there are MANY events time and again throughout history where the birth (or death) of a single figure can have wide ripples throughout not only a single region, but the entire world. Why not kill off (or simply not have born) the person (such as Hitler) in order to prevent the domino effect, as he is outside of time and is able to foresee all the consequences of a single sperm hitting an egg. Or maybe influence, let’s say the art school where Hitler applied to get him to be an artist instead.
Take that idea and the ripple effects throughout more ancient history. The Egyptians. The Vikings. The Roman conquest.
@Jear77
That’s religion: rote obedience hoping for gain and not “getting it perfect”.
As for covering your basic needs? God or nanny?
Or perhaps “business contract”? Again, religion has poisoned the thinking.
Consider your prospect of “the children holding the parents accountable”. What is it you are trying to say with this?
Yes, we get to “live life” . . . and live with the natural consequences of it.
To me, this is just “being adult”.
@griz actually the relationship is what costs. Guys pay for sex in marriage. Even if the girl is only a girlfriend there’s still dates, movies. etc before the act. And what god wants is much more than sex. He wants total surrender. But I’m not the type of a guy that can do so without something in return. You know how in the dating scene there’s the term NSA “No strings attached.” Because total surrender is such a complete, comprehensive thing, I require MANY strings for such a commitment. If I don’t have to be concerned about not having something that I can’t simply go to the store and buy, that is a major concern. As I said before, there’s VERY few problems having a literal ton of excess hundred dollar bills can’t solve or help mitigate (oh, I just looked it up… a ton of $100s would give me $90,800,000. Maybe I should use that as my permanent marker for belief!) Oh, my home is destroyed? No problem, I’ll move, preferably to an area that whatever happened won’t happen again. Oh, I have a strange disease? Let me find a cure for myself. Oh, I’m fat, ugly, etc? I’ll get a personal trainer, surgery, etc. Oh, I don’t have a job because I was just fired? No problem, I’ll start my own business or pay to go back to college. You think you’ve seen a possessive stalker boyfriend/ girlfriend. I’m a MILLION times worse in my demands.
@Jear77
All of that still is just “paying for a feeling”.
Is this “”love””?? (Or just self-service?)
@griz Why can’t it be both? It’s ill advised to fall in love with someone who is in deep financial trouble, because the only thing they’re going to do is cause the other person problems. Why do you think there’s been an ongoing term to have a dowry and bride price? And from personal experience this god of yours is severely lacking in the money department. He wants all. I demand all in return (and don’t give me the bullshit that he gave his life… no he gave up a weekend, really not even because he died friday afternoon and was raised before dawn on sunday)
@Jear77
I look at God’s example of love; and how much “trouble” it cost him to make this offer of fellowship with Life . . . possible.
Yes, I’m talking Divine terms and concepts; and you are speaking just of worldly ones. I’m speaking of things “that live”; while the worldly view can only speak of things “that die”.
(But for those who crave a Biblical edict for financial relationship, they could take the verse about “not being unequally yoked.” )
There remains a HUGE difference between loving someone . . . and just using them to satisfy your own feelings. Love can and does incorporate feelings. But feelings are not indicators of true love. And there are perhaps very good reasons for this.
With Christ what is important is not the span of time physical death “owned him” . . . it’s that “He who never knew death” was willing to enter it’s embrace for the sole purpose of inviting us into something amazing.
Would you have been “”happier”” if it had been a week?
And personally, I found that my spiritual progress was nil when I was still fancying that “”I”” was the one who’s job it was to direct, judge, and score “the parent”.
I would submit that there are very good reasons for EVERYTHING. But we are spiritual infants (or still-borns?) trying to understand a grown-up spiritual world.
@griz actually you’re completely wrong. It cost god LESS THAN NOTHING in the scope of eternity to (supposedly) cause forgiveness. Why? If god is all powerful, as you say he is, he shouldn’t have needed to sacrifice anything. To say otherwise makes god weaksauce. So he did something that he not only didn’t need to do, but at some point ultimately useless because it wasn’t effectual for everyone. It seems an asshole move to attach conditions to such a forgiveness when everyone could have been saved from the get go.
@Jear77
I find myself curious as to when you managed to achieve sufficient god-hood to assess this cost?
I can see you are anxiously wanting to prove you are a god-unto-yourself. But contrats at your achieving (and apparently tossing) it!
What is amazing is that God didn’t “need” to. Just as a parent doesn’t really “need” to go through a lot of things with their kids. But they “lower” themselves to doing it, knowing that it will be beneficial for the child.
I recall fondly the time various parents (and stand-ins) took patiently trying to explain things to me; or walking me through things, experiences, in a way that made them easier for me to understand . . . rather than just going “poof” and making a display of their power over and above me.
A huge part of God’s love for us is in going to such lengths to make spiritual things (realities) more understandable in child-terms. He didn’t have to undertake such a long lesson in the value of substitutionary sacrifice or the uselessness of human-created religion (organized and personal).
These were for OUR sake.
And even in lessons that lasted through generations, provision was made so that nobody would be lost that didn’t want to be lost before the final substitutionary sacrifice of Christ made no more “credits of righteousness” necessary! (The Abrahamic Provision).
@griz it’s obvious as the nose on my face. Something can’t cost anything if you have an infinite amount of it. Logic.
@Jear77
Consider death to be anti-life.
Although I think that you already do.
@griz your point?
Even if true, you still don’t get my point. The infinite can in no way be diminished, hence no cost.
@Jear77
Just a part of “the terrible cost” . . . was the Infinite intentionally diminishing itself to being found in Human form. (See Php 2). Just how much of “who God is” had to be set aside to “take on fleshly form” without totally burning it out?
Or for “Eternity” to exist within the confines of space/time without totally annihilating it?
And for “Eternal Life” in every an all sense of the condition, to submit to physical death’s embrace even just for 3 short days??
Remember, the religion has toxified your understanding of God to be just a fixture of us and our current limited understanding.
@griz the infinite is continuously renewing itself, still no cost, ultimately. Sorry.
@Jear77
This lends credence to the observation that even decades of church-religion are no substitute for actual fellowship with God’s Spirit.
Its like hearing all kinds of things about someone. Then you get to know them and hang with them and find out most of it was just flapping of the gums.
” I don’t know who they were talking about but it certainly wasn’t him!”
Jear! You’re making presumptuous and judgements on someone it seems you have never personally known!
@griz i don’t NEED to know god personally to be able to say what I am saying. it’s simply math. While i know math is my worst subject, there are a few things that I do know. One of them is that the concept of infinity can’t be diminished. Why? It wouldn’t be infinite to begin with.
I see god say say in the bible that he gave his son. Ok. Why set up the situation knowing such a thing would be needed? The angels chose and had no need of a savior. So saying that there were no other options in my viewpoint is exceedingly wrong. It’s completely useless and outright controlling to make sure that we have to worship him to do anything of merit. In examining the scriptures I am 100% SURE that I will never be willing to acknowledge such a being.
@Jear77
God being God, of course there were other options. This is just the one he chose. The answer to why, is “entirely for our sake”.
We are the only species gifted with choice within existing circumstances. God will not interfere with our minds and the story that we choose to write with what we’ve been given.
Children need things explained to them in a way they can understand. They need parameters, rules to give structure and keep them safe from the things they can’t foresee and and substitutionary consequence to help teach them to make wise decisions unto their continuance and success.
The wrong decision having a substitutionairy cost? For a herdng culture that becomes a perfect lamb. For a stubborn and stiff-necked people who worship themselves, a sacrifice of ego.
And a substitutionary sacrifice sufficient to cover once-for-all the most “dire” physical consequence ever? What could be more valuable to a culture based on lineage than an only son?
These were not there to please God’s wrath, but for our understanding.
Why not just change the rules? Consider how confused the child is raised in such a chaotic situation. A child needs stability in predictability to learn and flourish.
The Bible never says God is infinite. Infinity is our creation. It does say that he is beyond anything that is of our creation; or full comprehension.
But at the end we are left with this. One person who asserts God is a cruel rat bastard and that they don’t need to know him to judge and condemn him as such. (Oh, and they find fault with his teaching analogies!).
And another who bears witness to ongoing fellowship with God in sees a loving patient parent.
@griz still such a being that is so utterly “beyond” us should have no need of a petty thing such as the concept of cost, as such would be meaningless to such a being. Cost is such a human concept. And even if there was a cost, in the light of eternity, it would be meaningless, no matter how high. So I can’t agree with you on that.
@Jear77
A human concept facilitates human understanding, just as a child’s concept facilitates a child’s understanding.
Neither is a complete understanding but rather, a beginning.
When seeking something beyond self, it should be expected that one will have to go beyond self.
@griz then that being has no business trying to communicate anything to us, or punishing us if we misunderstood it. As it is the misconceptions surrounding its message is an eternity of punishment.
@Jear77
What did you misunderstand?
Religion or God? (Which did you fellowship with?)
We have the choice to write our own story. But the caution is there some stories we won’t like the conclusion of.
We know that fire burns. If one plays with it and get burned, who is “punishing” them? The firethey started? God for making it so hot and us not fireproof?
Or our own foolishness?
@griz everything. At day’s end we can KNOW nothing about a spiritual reality without proof. We only have words and others who say that is not so. There are models that don’t require the existence of a deity. And I in no way should be required to participate in something i have no proof ahead of time.
@Jear77
As had been said: the only proof of fellowship . . . is in participation.
The only proof of artistry, is to do.
The only proof of a victorious life, is in living it.
You want scientific proof to be your savior; to “prove” life to you ahead of time before stepping out your door.
@griz looking at everyone who is a Christian… they ALL have the EXACT SAME problems… it seems of no benefit. Oh, sure they may FEEL better, which at day’s end I see as a band aid solution. It covers the symptoms, nothing more. But show me any Christian community that doesn’t have: Divorce. Disease. Job loss/ money issues. Death. Doesn’t seem a good deal for complete surrender. ESPECIALLY the last.
Show me REAL solutions… not just “oh this is the way things are.”
@Jear77
I have shared with you over the years how I am susceptible the same temptations and follies that are common to Man. I’ve shared my experiences, some of which are perhaps not all that common to many.
And I have shared how I have not just survived but overcome these challenges and not been burdened unto life-long problems by them.
And I have shared wisdom from these journeys that even you have found helpful. (Or at least challenging!)
People testify to many good experiences in life. It never constitutes the kind of uncategorical pre-proof that comes to be required on some points but not on others!
But it points to a different path to walk in life; one that by your own admission you have never tried.
If the path you are currently trying is netting you all of these wonderful things in abundance then sure! Go for it; and bear witness to how wonderfully it’s working for you in everything you encounter. Or could conceive encountering.
But if it’s not, perhaps it’s time to try something you’ve never tried before. One where the burdens of doubt, fear, and trepidation are totally managed.
Imagine having all that energy wasted on these things suddenly available for more meaningful pursuit!
@Jear77
Fellowship is just one of many wonderful things in life that does not submit to pre-proof!
Chances are good you already partake of several of them without requiring this level of pre-proof. But special scorn seems to have been reserved for God . . , because fellowship with a human system of religion for some mysterious reason did not equal fellowship with God.
It’s a bit like being angry at all Australians because your mission to Peru to learn about Australian culture was a flop.
@griz this salvation you speak of solves nothing. Either Christ died for humanity or he didn’t. It’s a band aid fix akin to a vaccine. Everyone must get it. But the disease it vaccinated against still is there. Why? Because we’re already supposedly infected already. And a person can’t get vaccinated beforehand. The moment sperm hits egg, that person is under the curse of sin. A vaccine can’t help a person already infected effectively. A real life analogy is that of shingles, which is the Chicken Pox virus, which can’t completely eliminate shingles outbreaks. Add to that ideology the fact it doesn’t solve (and hasn’t) the world’s problems. Poverty. Disease. Crime. Death. So no. Sorry
@Jear77
What it resolves is the “life and life more abundantly” issue that I see so many struggling with. Present company included.
And it resolves it despite all these things you mention!
Even now you focus upon and cannot get past them.
Whereas I am so past them that I can use all of that worry and fret energy more constructively!
And then there’s the promise of something far more amazing yet to come??!!
I must have died [been resurrected] and gone to heaven!
@griz the problem with that is something that is not a permanent things. Sorry. No sale.
@Jear77
What “beginning” . . , IS permanent?
What part of “in process”, is permanent?
What grade in school is permanent?
@Jear77
Uou may be overlooking God’s most amazing creation: independent free choice within the bounds of his sovereignty.
The other animals don’t have it but we do. And apparently God has decreed that he won’t override this no matter what.
Very cool!
@griz unfortunately it also requires faith sans proof. Had EVEN one of the world’s problems been solved, NEVER to return again, that’d be one thing. We have not only NOT solved anything, but we have more problems than we had in past years!
@Jear77
Exercising it, participating in it is the proof!
And choosing not to participate is by no means proof that choice within God’s plan doesn’t exist.
It’s some of the most convincing proof that it does!
@griz how many fish and loaves have you multiplied lately? How many illnesses? How many people you raised from the dead? What about casting demons out? No?
@Jear77
The miracles I’ve participated in are not mine to boast in. Because then it’s about me.
Is this what you craved from your years in religion? Boasting and a spotlight on you?
@griz no…. But I sure as well don’t see how a relationship with one who DID such things (supposedly), the prophecy of which stated that “these things AND more you will be able to do”… Should mean that we see such things all the time. We do not. In fact instead of hearing “be healed” in the latter part of the new testament, we hear “drink some wine.” There’s a MAJOR disconnect here that I’m seeing…
@Jear77
Perhaps we do not see them . . . because we are still more interested in seeking things we can boast of for ourselves and our ego! I’m glad you didn’t say my answer was just a dodge to avoid sharing the miraculous things I’ve participated in . . . because I KNOW from experience to try to use them for my own greater glory is to cause them to cease.
It’s a wonderful and amazing “ride” Jear, participating (in fellowship) with the Spirit of Christ. But ego (an aspect of “the dying flesh”) very effectively puts it on a back-burner . . . that given enough time simply goes cold.
(BTW, I’ve shared some of them on-group when they were more for God’s glory than my own.)
One of the more difficult tasks I faced on my path was recognizing that most of the “disconnects” I was seeing . . . were in myself, projected on whatever sufficiently-large “target” was available.
Blame the parents. Blame God. Blame the Christians. Blame the other person. Blame reality. And never taking responsibility for where I currently was and whatever choices I made/make that put me there, keep me there, have me struggling just to survive.
@griz doctors don’t lay hands. Their miracles are of the scalpel and chemical concoctions they give. It is said that doctors only practice medicine. Interestingly enough, there was NEVER a time Jesus’ request for a miracle was not met. If nowadays 99.99999999999999999999999% out of 100% of miracles are simply told “no” to, that doesn’t meet the requirements of more than he did.
@Jear77
Medical science can be a boon. Or a scourge. Ours is the task of wisely choosing. To hold either modern medicine or time-honored holistic treatments (or supernatural healing of a time-stamped physical body) as “almighty” . . . is a poor choice.
I’ve had modern doctors give up on something, only to find relief or even lasting cure in holistic, native, oriental or natural medicine.
To rely on miraculous physical healings when medical science has a resolution only proves one a fool for not making wise use of all tools at their disposal.
@griz or it makes god seem powerless…
@Jear77
It’s only the weak who feel they need to have their thumb on everything. The person who has things barely under control feels the greatest need to control everything.
Whereas the king who is not doubting his absolute power, will not hesitate to let those under him exercise some power.
Such as the power to think and choose for themselves.
God is only diminished in the minds of those who wish to. And this he allows.
The question then is why would our mind need to?
The answer is that ego is in its wrong place of competing for role of almighty.
@griz no. To each their own specialization. The doctors cure, the architects design, the construction workers build.
@Jear77
I’m not sure what the “no” relates to; other than it’s a word you try to get a lot of miles out of!
And people are free to specialize. But woe to the person who becomes so over-specialized they are helpless (afraid even) beyond one specific field.
And I repeat that the master of a “house” (or kingdom) that is confident of their ability/authority can afford to let others explore their ability/authority under them.
@Jear77
I’m trying to apply religion to a society doesn’t work for two very important reasons.
1. Religion is of man. It services flesh and feelings. It can never exceed death, for it is born of flesh.
2. Forcing his kingdom on those who don’t want it is contrary to God’s nature. Following a Godly path would deal with much that ails this species and this orb.
But we don’t want it.
We would much rather run after dead-end processes that make our flesh (including ego) feel good in the moment.
@griz if freedom, independence, choice (which ultimately leads to hell) are gifts, it’s the largest white elephant gift in the universe! Seeing that most don’t find this path you speak of… their entire existence is nothing more than a divine joke. That’s not humor, that’s sickness of the mind.
@Jear77
Any gift can be used foolishly unto detriment (or calamity!); or wisely.
I do note that very few seem to find wisdom. But even that is choosing to use what is there — what is gifted to us — poorly.
I’ve done nothing special beyond looking where the answer can be found, and following a very few guidelines regarding the upkeep of good fellowship with Christ’s Spirit.
It’s not the marathon of obeying 616 rules “or else” that you keep insisting it is!
@griz said
“I should think that we both could agree that what is truly valuable, is that which doesn’t die or pass away.”
So people have no value?!?!!?
@luftballooneyegouge
The value of a person is the possibility they represent, even up to their dying breath. After that, possibilities are severely limited.
Imagine if someone presented you with the nondescript corpse and asked you to list its value ( Beyond fertilizer!).
Imagine a picture of you is shown to some person 200 years from now. What could they say of your value?
Why do you think we struggle and strive for fame or at the very least notoriety? We are hoping for a lasting value.
@griz
I’m the guy that was trying to get you to donate a kidney, so I’ll let that be my answer towards what value a corpse has.
In 200 years my image will be ubiquitous.
The struggle for appreciation has more to do with what it gets you in this world now, than what it gets you in the next……..
@luftballooneyegouge
How quickly does the potential of an organ fade once the final breath is taken?
Lol! Your eye-gougy-ness is legendary!
as for your last observation, perhaps in the short-term. but there are a lot of people who dream of “being remembered” even after their acquisitions have been liquidated and squandered by relatives!
We are the quiet, the respectful, the steadfast defenders of our country and flag. We are those that stand as a strong line supporting our President. We are watching the chaos flailing around us as we go right on with meeting the challenges in making America great again.
We watch as those who are in rebellion are fighting and killing in the streets. We watch as statues are torn down — knowing that we can replace them in a time of a saner mature society. We watch as the rabble protests, beating with clubs, setting fires, breaking store front windows, and marching in the blood, shouting, screaming and crying because they are not getting their way. We watch, slightly amused at the childish antics of the immature who think that beating and bashing in heads is a way to get us to see your way is the ways that society should progress.
We watch with the maturity to know that you cannot change the vote of the people by beating them, or burning down the towns. You cannot convince us that you are for peace and love by exhibiting violence and trying to batter us to convince us that you are right. We stand strong and steadfast and the violence we see exhibited only makes us stronger and more determined to vote in laws that will contain this rebellion. We stand strong, fireproof, and resilient. We follow the lead and example of our President who goes right on working to bring back the strong America we know will come to be. We prey that the violence will end and know that the trouble-makers and evil doers may not stop until they are arrested and put in cells behind bars to think about better ways to express what they want.
We watch. We wait, We work. We push with the strength of our voting. We join hands in prayers for a strong America.
@ladybarbara
@ladybarbara Quote was verified. Jefferson did say this.
I think it all fundamentally comes down to greed and that is driven by a survival instinct which accepts that more is better. The “trinity”of selfish/greed/survival is a pretty tough combo to battle unless you dig pretty deep to fight that fight.
A great example has just been illustrated with the Mayweather-MacGregor fight. The interest in seeing these two pugilists battle for supremacy is a huge statement on what we have become. White versus black, violence in the name of “sport”, huge money, win or lose. all directed towards an appetite, hungry to be fed a diet of hype in a world where hype takes precedence over calm.
I think this overall acceptance of violence, mostly found in men feeds some kind of relevance in us. If we talk tough, we are tough. If we smile at a punch in the face it’s because we see a superficial manliness at laughing in the face of violence. And that has to be driven by a sense that we aren’t manly enough in the first place. We need the transfer to feed our own inadequacies, same way a teenage girl will stuff her bra with tissues. Guns are those tissues as well.
Possible ways to turn it around? Have clear and rational objectives identifying what the preferred state is and then considering specific ways to realize the objective.
All I am saying, is give peace a chance…
No.
We are not in a madcap race to lose the most valuable aspects of our humanity.
I’m amused that the criticism of gorging on darkness is followed by a request to expand on that darkness.
@luftballooneyegouge
If you see a bright future despite trends, share examples of our racing towards that.
@griz
Gee, thanks for the assignment chief.
My example would be the newest batch of kids, being more intellectually stimulated and challenged. There’s these vids where they take decades old things and show them to young kids for the first time. One video is a bunch of 7yr olds being shown Motley Crue videos & songs, with drummer Tommy Lee’s reaction to the kid’s reactions. The first thing he notices and says is the 7 yr olds sound as developed as the past’s 20 year olds, and they most definitely do.
I hope that helps with the binary sky-is-falling vs endless-horizons.
@luftballooneyegouge
Measure this against earlier “new batches of kids” who cannot make change, spell, or compose grammatically correct sentences without a computer.
Who don’t know what true love is. Who think that feelings should dictate reality. Who think it’s everyone else who has the problem instead of them. Who are either shocked or suspicious at true consideration for them.
Information is the new gold; but wisdom and common sense become more and more rare. Greed and selfishness are on the rise. And it seems more and more specialized training is required for even the simplest of tasks.
It’s true that there are some advances. But the losses are adding up, apparently with the most realizing it.
@griz
Your prejudice makes my ears ring.
How did you come to the notion that any group of people don’t know what true love is?!?!?!?
@luftballooneyegouge
True love is eternal; and is as much a commitment as a feeling. Perhaps more.
Had you another notion as to what true love is? (And you can get drops for ringing ears!)
@griz
I’ll ask again, how did you come to the notion that any group of people don’t know what true love is?!?!?!?
Your claim “True love is eternal; and is as much a commitment as a feeling. Perhaps more” seems to fall flat when one considers a mother’s love for her child doesn’t occur until she is at least pregnant, so eternal doesn’t apply.
@luftballooneyegouge
If you listen people will tell you loud and clear what their foundational notions and beliefs are. The human individual is not nearly so “mysterious” as it might like to fancy it is!
Discernment can happen in a moment, and is confirmed/built upon over time.
But the caution is, that you have to let them be free to be who they choose to be. And this can only happen if one is truly free and not prone to judge others to condemnation or dismissal.
Any personal baggage or imprisonments will try to turn them into what you want/need them to be — or dismiss them as “worthless” if they don’t support the constructs you need supported .
Since the currently-accepted norm is to move only one direction through time, consider that a mother who truly loves their child always will. Even if that child is no longer with them.
There are Spiritual exercises for tracking this expression of true love backwards through time. But they are advanced.
One has to learn to spiritually crawl before they can walk or run.
@griz
said, “But the caution is, that you have to let them be free to be who they choose to be. And this can only happen if one is truly free and not prone to judge others to condemnation or dismissal.”
Well with that, I’ll ask for the 3rd time, how did you come to the notion that any group of people don’t know what true love is. I’ll answer for you: Confusion
Moving only one direction in time isn’t eternal. You need to change your shit from eternal to everlasting.
@luftballooneyegouge
How be, “They don’t know it if they don’t practice it; and repeatedly try to assess it to things that are false love”.
( time to digest)
I can deal with the definition of everlasting.
Though I still hold that a more perfect understanding will lead to a more perfect definition!
With everything going on in the world, and the United States; we have to remain vigilant…but healthy at the same time. The “Make America Great Again” is nothing more than an advertising slogan. This “president” speaks for himself, not the American people. Trump’s Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson said so yesterday on live TV.
I will take care of myself, first and foremost, and I will keep my humanity intact.
@Gina
My thought is that those who are still able to exercise their Humanity, need to reach out and encourage others to do the same.
There are perhaps already enough enough people isolating onto islands of self for us to see this is not making Society great again.
@griz Yep. Agreed. The issue and hard thing to deal with right now is the lies coming from our own president and his followers. It’s really hard to reason with someone who falls for all the lies.
@Gina
I think our job is more to bear witness to what we know as truth, than to “make” others see it.
Truth will always out. And those who see it sooner rather than later are always blessed.
@griz That is an excellent point! Truth always wins in the end. I can’t make someone see something they don’t want to see.
@Gina
there is an art-form, perhaps even a nobility in contending for the truth. Not so that one may be proven right but simply because truth is good, and those who find it are blessed. 1 Wishes the blessing to be shared.
The fine line is crossed when we are arguing Truth for our own sake or glory. To vanquish our foes. An “I’m right, you’re wrong” scenario.
Because then the truth is no longer in us.
fiction often describes the destitute population as “lost souls” but when ever i spend more than a day in toronto and see the glazed eyes of the consumer driven population, i see more ‘lost souls’ than in the eyes of the people on the street
that is where i think loss of humanity lies. in caring more about things than each other. in judgement and evaluation as opposed to seeing the humans before you as opposed to how they dress.
i think the negative gives more of a rush than care. care takes slowing down, mindfulness, inner instead of outer judgement maybe. i think its been like this for all time, but it is so apparent in places like the eatons centre district :D
im not sure why we (i dont include me in this we) find the grotesque and terrifying so appealing. because it allows us to live out the things we wont or cant do in life? i dont know. its like music, sometimes we need to release through hard core and sometimes we need to be soothed.
i think it takes individuals to turn it around. to have their Moments and to see beyond what they think is important. but its a balance. i think its ok to want to appear a certain way and to have interests and live differently than each other. its who we are as a species even when we are fitting in, we need to be ourselves. but its how we look at each other. and that wont change until we look within.
maybe
@BelleMadre I get very anxious when I am in a Mall. The over consumption is sad and sickening. Stuff does not make you happy in the long term. It’s suffocating.
@Gina
I would invite a redefinition of that statement. Happiness is a reactionary emotion, short-term by its nature.
Material acquisitions almost always give us a shot of this. But long-term Joy satisfaction or contentment are almost always lacking.
It’s like a drug addiction. The more you get the more you want.
@Gina i find malls tiring. i go with a purpose, and i think thats the only way i can make it through without a head ache :D i am not a mall walker. if i want to talk ill walk in the woods or down a nice street. thats ok. because i dont want to judge others who find that appealing. i just imagine how drained they might feel? no wonder we lose our ability to empathize with each other, if we spend so much time in the bright lights of shopping centers, feeling the constant rush of want and drive to have. i like it sometimes for a short period of time. its a buzz. but i dont live for it
@BelleMadre
I think that clearly seeing it is an important step to changing it. I see a lot of drive in society to distract from seeing it. Or seeing it and dismissing it.
We see advancements in other areas: things like entertainment skills, competition skills, data handling management and retrieval skills, and scientific advances that while interesting, have little traction for the average person to use for their betterment within the greater whole.
What I see atrophying, are interpersonal skills in areas like relational, communication, consideration and care/compassion beyond self-service. (Ie, making US feel better is the primary concern)
The dictionary defines atrophying as the wasting away of an organism as individual cells become compromised, less able to function as a viable part of the greater whole.
The comparison to the larger organism of human society, is sobering. Are we not seeing . . . a greater disassociation in isolation how the individuals from the functional greater whole?
@griz there is hope yet, right?
@BelleMadre
I believe there is.
There may yet be many cycles of smartening-up and dumbing-down before “The Final Stupid”!
Or we may be on the last lap now? Perhaps an incentive to stop playing games?
@griz i agree with all of this!
and of course a species of diversity, we will find many different views on what is necessary, vital or even important. and fair enough, but i do think its almost now or never time!
i think this relates to my life too. the things i yearn for or want to have or do or be, now or when? thats the question i guess!
@BelleMadre
“The hope” is that almost every generation has prophesied impending doom and we are still here.
The caution for both the person and the species is that a “point of no return” will eventually be crossed, and only apparent in hindsight.
Are you familiar with the concept of a black hole event horizon?