It’s both. I define certain aspect: what I consume (provided said food/ drink is available), what I wear (provided I happen to do laundry and it’s clean or simply wear dirty clothes). Some has been defined long before I existed. The house I am living i, unless I want to make structural changes to it. The city where I live (unless I want to go to jail I can’t reroute things such as utilities, stores, or roads without consent). The government whose laws I abide by (unless of course I get them to change through legal or not-so-legal means).
There is the axiom that “Life happens” — whether we want it to or not. Things happened before we came along that define us in ways we might not be aware of. Things happen all around us — and sometimes right on top of us — that work to define who we are.
But then we have a say in defining ourselves, what will define us and how. As with most of my posts, this is about exercising control and responsibility over ourselves. Events beyond our control may leave their marks on us. But we get to choose what we will do with those marks upon us.
@griz the thing is that even the best thing out there, at least according to you, hasn’t done anything to SOLVE the world’s problems. Talking about it is one thing. Giving money is another. Elimination where it’s never seen again is an entirely different situation.
@Jear77
Become the change you wish to see in the world. When enough people accomplish this, the world’s problems will reduce astronomically; leaving us with more time and energy to deal with the very few this might not address.
Perhaps the “elimination” mindset itself is at the root of too many of life’s issues? We too often run around trying to eliminate the very things that help define us, make us strong and effective.
Think back to the 23rd Psalm. Where is it our feast comes and our head is annointed with oil (wisdom, life)? “In the presence of our enemies”. How can one be in the presence . . . of something one has “eliminated”??
@griz the idea of solving something once and for all means you’ll never see it again NEITHER will anyone else in any other iteration. Even the best of our medicines will never kill off germs, diseases, conditions, We simply postpone the inevitable, pushing off having to deal with it until later
Yet do you see our abundant attempts to exclude, to remove, to eliminate, to eradicate? They are all simply sweeping messes under the rug — where they build up; morph; even mutate (mwa ha haa!) to come raging out when we least expect them.
Consider what is happening with the white-supremacy surge that has seemingly taken a lot of people by surprise.
@griz the problem of racism is one that COULD potentially be solved with education. But is there enough in the world to be able to show that we are all ONE people?
@Jear77
Education does not always override feelings. People know beyond any question that smoking is a fatal addiction. But the feeling keeps them doing it.
@griz 23 & me has an entertaining advertisement starring “Gru” from the “Despicable me” franchise. I think that much of the problem with education is that it seems boring and disconnected from the real world. Maybe making it funny and entertaining can break through the most close-minded people.
@Jear77
Then our race’s education system in all its forms and as a whole is a failure on this point.
Because who out there is not ruled by their feelings in impulses a lot of the time?
There is a very great tendency to hold that are human institutions like science and education have somehow exceeded us and the core evils that define us.
It’s like we are trying to forget or pretend that what is of us, is not of us!
@griz there are some things that we have impulses on that are GOOD to ignore, others not so much. For instance, could you imagine a world where everyone ate nothing but that which was nutritious, and we were never allowed to enjoy anything that was the slightest bit unhealthy? How boring would life be unless you really LIKED being a rawfood vegan and needing to avoid eating anything that didn’t meet the profile of healthiness you conformed to.
On the other hand, impulses to do things that will ALWAYS come back to bite us in the butt should be taught to avoid, and as a friend says “no excuses.”
@Jear77
I have never said that the feelings urges of our flesh can’t serve a purpose.
I have said that there is a difference between us having them and them having us: us mastering them and them mastering us. Which is “the tool” the other uses?
And in this it is just like with any relationship. If all one sees are just their own feelings, there is no relationship with anything other than one’s own self.
And one’s own feelings and trespasses, will be reflected onto the other, as accusations for the failing of the relationship.
@griz everything except the last paragraph i understood and can partially agree with, but not the ideas behind it, ad you’re indirectly talking about life/ god, which i addressed in another conversation.
@Jear77
My personal observation is that all things are ultimately about life/God; or the antithesis.
This ties into the axiom that no one can serve two masters.
For my last paragraph, consider any relationship where the participants are mainly using each other for personal gain. There is an overwhelming tendency to take credit for the positives; while laying blame for the negatives on the other.
Whether that other is a co-worker, a partner, an ethnic/political/religious group, a Congress . . . or God!
Feelings/ego as master, can brook no other conclusion.
@griz Yet if both parties agree to the use and are completely transparent in what they want, of what harm is there?
What’s bad though is the machinations of god, biblically… EVERY human being is, for lack of a better term, a pawn in a giant game of chess. That’s problematic to me. And we humans have no say, no “out” as it were to be a non-combatant to avoid the conflict, avoid both parties altogether…
@griz Or fail to play their game and be, as another person stated on here to be completely and totally undefined by such things, and should an eternity exist, deal with it at that point, as there’s no way possibly (once again) to determine spiritual realities until after death, so why worry about it? Hell you say? The god portrayed in the bible is not one I’d want to serve eternally, for he set up the situation to begin with to make the rigged choice, which really isn’t one at all.
@Jear77
There is no way to determine relational realities until you go out and risk having one.
There is no way to determine your reality as a parent until you have children.
There is no way to determine your reality as a design engineer until you risk getting an education and applying for a job.
I suppose one could refuse to play light’s game and refuse to be defined by the light. Good luck with that! because even if one dwells in total darkness, the fear of being defined by the Light becomes a defining factor.
One can be aware of things without being afraid. (Worry is fear-based).
The only time one has no choice, is when they are owned. I am God’s child; and I have infinite choices!
@griz Haven’t I said before that I have completely embraced my hypocrisy? Therefore, anything that is incongruous is meaningless to me. So no matter the light, it’s not going to do anything as it’s simply part of the convoluted, complex person who I am, and it matters nothing to me. Accusations, even guilt in a matter mean nothing if the person so accused (or convicted) cares not.
@griz in real life, that person would be killed. In eternity, that’s what you’re ultimately referring to, nothing. It’s a pre-rigged choice, made the moment creation was set into motion by the one who gave the false dichotomy of god and satan. An uninformed choice i.e. no even tangential scientific evidence of this reality isn’t a choice at all.
@griz the fact that there is no true choice is a manipulation in and of itself simply due to my lack of omniscience. You say that the limited knowledge we have was worth the possibility of hell? No! Only in omniscience can we make true choices and be unable to be manipulated by forces outside ourselves.
I define the bubble world I live in. It is close to home. It is home. Friends are close and like-minded, peace-loving ,Trump supporters, gun owners, who enjoy get-togethers. Prayer meetings and classes. I am re-learning gardening for Arizona desert gardening. I have a worm farm making black gold compost for me to use in my garden. I have a good man in my life. I enjoy cooking. It is cozy and I like it that way.
@ladybarbara
We each have this “personal kingdom” in which we are the monarch and get absolute say how things are going to be. Some choose to rule it wisely and others for various reasons, don’t. They end up being ruled by what is within them rather than ruling it.
Our little kingdom, is part of a larger kingdom, in which we don’t have the same say. It “happens” and reaches into and influences our inner kingdom whether we want it to or not. And denying that it does really doesn’t stop it from happening. The same as pretending one is not hurt doesn’t negate that one is hurt!
This is a bit of an invite to exploration as to how much we are in control of our inner kingdom; how much the outer kingdom reaches in and to what effect; and how “nicely” these two kingdoms come together in and around us.
Those who are controlled by their inner kingdom (feelings, emotions), cannot help be controlled by the outer kingdom; putting them even more out-of-control of themselves. Control of oneself is the first step to exercising
And there are those who try to totally divorce the two kingdoms and end up living a kind of fantasy existence with the two kingdoms essentially “not talking to each other”. I don’t see this as a healthy thing.
“Relationship with” is always better than “isolation” imho.
Using the word ‘define’ seems to be an awkward replacement for the word ‘control’.
I think this replacement happens because if ‘control’ is used under such a binary query, one will come to the false conclusion, which so often happens with binary thinking, one has no control, under the constraints of a two choice fallacy.
I guess to answer the question; No
I don’t define life & it doesn’t define me.
@luftballooneyegouge
My thought is that something that “defines” you, has succeeded in “controlling” you. Identifying you. Which is the antithesis of us getting to define (control) ourselves.
I find it helps to remember that with one choice (one’s inner kingdom), one has very great inherent control over over it . . . provided one chooses to exercise it the same way one would exercise any muscle to greater strength/ability.
The other choice (controlling the greater outward “kingdom” or reality) often doesn’t submit to our control attempts.
So as follow-up to your last statement . . . what, if anything, defines you? If the answer is “nothing” it could lead to a situation of one lacking all definition.
@griz
Controlling ourselves is controlling reality.
We’re always bending to our own will. The glory or folly is packaged in what we’re bending over for.
I’ve never suffered from lack of self-control. So, I might lack insights into the trials and tribs of what you seem to be looking for.
@luftballooneyegouge
Fully controlling ourselves only controlls the temporary pocket-dimension we call ego.
And over time I’ve realized that many things that I thought were control, were really just capitulation. (Often two things I didn’t see or want to see).
If you’ve somehow escaped this, I guess you get to pass go and collect $200!
@griz don’t monks of some eastern religions do this by by viewing reality as an illusion, and escaping self and ego through meditation and self denial?
@Jear77
Yes,
They hold that since eternity is longer, what is happening now will have all the substance of a dream in the time to come.
But that foolish choices within the dream, impact them in eternity.
Ascetism is viewed as an exercise in mastering that which is temporary so it doesn’t try to eclipse that which is eternal.
@Jear77
The face of poverty has changed over the years with inflation and materialism. But the spirit of it, the effect it has on the human soul, hasn’t. It’s not a nice thing to endure.
Ascetism however is more about self denial. Having access to things but refusing to partake of them. Many spiritual teachings, including the Bible, speak highly of fasting.
But we live in a society that tries to define itself totally by physical stuff, feelings, urges, desires, luxuries, emotions. We are at a point where most would struggle to give up one of these things for a period.
Giving up the necessity of physical sustenance for the sake of spiritual exercise, could prove next to impossible for most.
@griz The problem with doing such things if one has a choice is one needs to remain in balance. When I don’t sleep properly, I don’t function, make mistakes. Also, when I don’t eat after awhile I don’t function and make mistakes. And i prefer functionality vs making mistakes if at all possible. But if I make mistakes, that’s life because I don’t always have time to eat or sleep properly.
@jear77
The idea of both a fast and ascetism, is to put ourselves off balance! Not at our best.
It is saying that we crave things spiritual and divine so much, that we would willingly impoverish ourselves physically.
All we are giving up . . . Is that which is going to die and be buried anyway .
All of our physical exercises and observances can only take us to the grave. No farther.
One is saying, “I understand what the true priorities are here. And I am willing to be dead to self so I may be alive in Christ.”
Were you made aware of this before you recited the incantation religions have attached to inviting Christ into your life?
@griz Let me put it this way. At present because i have so few filters, as it is, when I’m off balance, I not only tend to insult others, but endanger lives, not only my own, but everyone around me. So by willingly partaking in such a thing, could end me up in prison, due to being off my game. The crime would be called “negligence.” And saying “oh, I was fasting” would be no excuse. It’s like a diabetic crashing into a crowd because s/he has low or high blood sugar. If they know they have diabetes willingly don’t have their blood sugar under control, it’s criminal.
@jear77
I too found that I had a lot of excuses for not getting started.
Native cultures practiced The Vision Quest — combining a fast with ascetism — in isolated areas, where one was no threat to anyone.
And part of “seeking purity”, involves identifying and confronting the pollution within us. one needs to own what they are capable of, if one truly wants to know and control themselves.
To not take this step, means letting the feelings and emotions and urges remain in control.
This is . . . “the flesh that opposes the spirit”. If the flesh is in control, the spirit can never be approached let alone known, or participated with.
One remains “a lost soul” . . . Regardless of what incantations they cited.
@griz I just know my body well enough to know the natural consequences because I’ve experienced them EVERY DAY for the last at least 6 months or longer as far as food goes. My blood sugar control would need to be LOTS better, which it won’t be until I’m able to go to the doctor… but I can’t because I’m in limbo as far as living situations go. And well over 20 years for sleep deprivation, which would accompany the lack of food…
@Jear77
Just a musing: I wonder if it upset Jesus metabolism to die on the cross not for his\God’s sake but ours?
This was his part of the New Covenant.
Our part is to give up far less, but also for our own sake, not his. Fasting from food or creature comforts is just a symbol; again more for our sake than God’s. We are not trying to earn purchase or prove anything to God. Once the ritual is over we go back to eating and our comforts.
Our part of the New Covenant is the ongoing sacrifice of our foolish ego and pride; things we only THINK are of value beyond measure. But they lead only to death; and are the very things that prevent spiritual process in us. These are the things that have us wanting God to jump through our hoops, and have us crafting excuses and personal exclusions.
This is the “broken thing” God asks that we give to him unreservedly. But then, as per God’s nature, He gives it back to us fixed and in abundant good measure. (We give up foolish things leading to death, he gives back wise things leading to Life)
The symbols of fasting and asceticism can be custom designed yet still retain their symbolism to us. The idea is that they are difficult; uncomfortable; unbalancing; even inconvenient!
Because our required ongoing sacrifice of foolish ego and pride is seen by us to be all of these things and more.
But mistakenly so.
I have yet to sacrifice anything to God according to his Spirit (not mine!) that has not come back “fixed”, and in proper measure.
@griz How many people were claiming to be christ, the messiah were crucified during that time period of history? There were a LOT of people who matched that description, because the Jews were yearning for freedom. And why do Christians venerate only one of them… yet I have a sneaky suspicion that some of the stories of what he supposedly did were the result of a compilation of figures coalescing into one figure… It’s not as if they had photographs back then to ask “did you see this man.” Words can only convey so much.
In regards to fasting, with as many mental and physical problems as I have, and due to the fact that I would risk endangering lives because I can’t concentrate… I doubt that even if i were a believer that Jesus would want me to do that. The command do not kill is such that we not put ourselves even accidentally into a situation where due to a momentary lapse of judgement someone else could potentially get injured… so if someone got even so much as a slightly pulled muscle, a pinprick or papercut due to our negligence, we would be breaking the commandment to not kill.
@Jear77
I give up. How many fools would lay claim to a title that Jewish law would require their stoning to death if they could not deliver on the Promises of it?
And where can one read about them?
I think you know why Jesus stood apart from all others; unless you were asleep in Sunday School!
I understand our current feelings wanting to rewrite what is recorded. But this is a good test as to whether our Almighty is just our feelings in this moment; or something greater and more enduring. The proof of Christ, is the Spirit of Christ. Christ did what he did only because of the Spirit that was in him. The changes and the power in my life happened according to that same Spirit as described in Scripture.
As with any fellowship, the proof is in participation: not in the damn petri dish!
(We are not worthy of thy plastic translucence or pinkish agar medium!)
Nor is it in spying on them, as proposed in another thread! :p
As for all the excuses: what can be said?
When that imprisoning and limiting spirit is our current Almighty, it controls our perceptions and thoughts unto what we are ALLOWED to see and ponder.
That is why I prefer An Almighty, who doesn’t want to control me. Who wants me to be free to learn how not to be imprisoned and controlled by my dying flesh.
Yo Griz. I think they’re polar opposites of the definition game. Life just is. It has no need to define itself or anything it produces. It just is what it is and does what it does. We, on the other hand, can ONLY define. It’s our super power. We define anything as anything and then we make it real by believing in it.
@TruthDistillery
It is more like we TRY to make it real. And if life “complies”, the result is happiness. This is our superpower and our curse; because it can come to own us.
My thought is that we need some definition in our lives.
Otherwise we are just a big blur on the landscape!
@griz, so what if we are only smudges on a petri dish? Would that make the life you’re living now less rich? I’m becoming more open to the possibility that none of this means anything.
@TruthDistillery
I try to freely ponder the joys and travails of the smudge who discovers they are but a smudge!
We may think the petri dish defines and limits us, and life within it is ultimately meaningless.
But what of the day when we might escape the dish? Everything up to that point will have been exercise for what is to come. That’s far from meaningless.
And if nothing is to come, we can have fun being the strongest and most joyful, most fulfilled smudge in the dish!
i suppose i let life define itself? im not being glib. what i mean by this is that ive made my own choices, conscious or not, and now i make more choices based on where those choices brought me. sometimes i feel like the train is on a track i dont remember laying down, but it really is up to me, isnt it, whether i stay on this track or not. so much is up to us that we dont notice or accept…
what i mean by life defining itself is also this… i put something into play, and then i roll with where that decision takes me. so maybe i play along with the definitions? or if i dont like them i change them. or i change my place in them?
its like telling myself i cant necessarily control the moment but i can control how i act in it. i cant necessarily control how i feel but i can control what i do. if i am mindful enough.
so maybe i define life more than i think i do, even when i am not making effort to exercise above said control?
@BelleMadre
I think there is a difference between trying to control life before it happens, and “channeling” into paths as it happens (or after it has happened) that we wish.
The former leads to stress, frustration, and being even less in control of oneself. The latter is a kind of acceptance of “what is” and then turning it into something beautiful. It leads to peace and joy and more control than one might first think they are able to exercise.
@griz i agree to a point. i do think we have more say in the flow of our lives than we accept some times. but i also think if we expend too much energy thinking too far ahead and not focusing on the now, we will indeed be more stressed etc… maybe its about planning, or awareness. putting into motion things we think we can handle. making the right choices?
but i am also into the idea of acceptance. acceptance is freeing. knowing we cant control everything but can direct our energy in the most peaceful way. thats an ideal id like to strive for.
@BelleMadre
I like the analogy of Life being like a river. We get to participate in its flow . . . unless we choose to fight its flow. And then we just tire ourselves out getting bounced off rocked and sucked through strainers!
I wonder if “acceptance” is related to “contentment”? I think it is.
But “contentment” had connotations that some people don’t like; as if it’s stagnation or apathy. But it’s not. To me it’s like a rejoicing in “what is”, while still being open to “what may yet come”.
@griz i do agree, and think that acceptance is related to contentment. but instantly there is a rising up in me, the part of me that says hey wait, we like having some control. is it ok to want a balance in this>? to go with the flow but perhaps to choose which river to raft down? to accept what comes up ahead on that river, because we chose to set our raft on that particular water?
metaphors aside, i guess i have mixed feelings. i feel i would be a lot calmer and less restless if i were more accepting. but maybe i just havent found myself in the right circumstances yet. maybe im not done steering
@BelleMadre
My thoughts turn to the difference between being “safe in the raft” bobbing over the surface, and actually swimming IN the river.
Perhaps it’s something not a lot of people have done, in which case the analogy would fail. But it’s an exercise I would heartily recommend.
Once in the grips of the river, one cannot say, “Wait! I’d prefer another river!”. You are in it, and you deal with what comes.
Either fighting and screaming and anguishing it’s not going where you want it to . . . or having a hoot!
There are ways to exercise control in the flow; but such happens by the river’s rules; not yours. At the end of the day there are those who are at peace within the flow, exercising the control they can by the river’s rules . . . and those who thrash and splash, anguish and just wear themselves out.
Both eventually arrive at the ocean.
But one is spent; while the other is fresh, energized and ready for whatever comes next.
i suppose one could study a map first, or at least have a sense of what is ahead. like hey im going to take the river to the right not the path to the left, or of course the other, more practical sounding option, vice versa
or choose how we start out. are we in a craft or standing hip deep? do we have boots on?
Thinking back I’m reminded of all the “river swims” my buddies and I did where we would just jump in and go. Our only use for the map was to plan an extraction point and how to get back home again. A little shiver goes through me when I think of once when we “eddied-out” after some rapids, right at the brink of a respectable waterfall!
It’s perhaps linked to the male proclivity to not read the instructions? We tend to glance at them for the pictures of how the finished product will look . . . then we put down our heads and charge at it head-on!
When I read this question, I think about how “life”, (because I see life as one big substance),has defined me in ways. For example, I, unlike Neo wasn’t given a choice to take the red pill or the blue pill. I was given the blue pill when I was born. So the only red pill available to me now is critical thinking.
In thinking about this q, I agree with @truthdistillery. we, as humans, are mostly known as being the most advanced living organism. What sets us apart maybe is our ability to perceive. We can use this ability for good or bad, but even those words are mere definitions, and that is where I get hung up. We could try and define them, such as saying “bad” is anything that harms others, but that doesn’t exactly work because sometimes people harm others without even knowing they are doing it or that the action is harmful to a particular person.
At any rate, when I am in nature and I am quiet, I get in touch with what is there, I synchronize and harmonize with “life”, all that is, because there is no other noise in my head from all the other humans who are using their “special gift”. so what if there were a way to synchronize and harmonize with the other humans?
Well, one way I can think of is to remove judgment from all the humans.
At the end of the day, I think the answer is both. Life has defined me, and I have defined it.
Every day, I have to remember my special gift, and find a way to use it to serve life.
@Scarlett
I wonder if what sets us apart is not just perceiving, but exercising choice? What good is it if we perceive the cliff our lemming-herd is about to tumble over, if we don’t make a conscious choice to not run over it? Despite our perception, we would be no greater than the lemmings if we didn’t exercise choice!
The rest of the animals appear to have no choice. They only have feelings and instincts and are “owned” by them. We seem to have been gifted choice in how much our instincts (our flesh) controls (owns) us; and how much we own them.
“so what if there were a way to synchronize and harmonize with the other humans? . . . Well, one way I can think of is to remove judgment from all the humans”
I don’t think it is our authority to “take away” anything from another person exercising their Human gift to choose freely. We can try to gift them the realization of 1) the ability to choose and 2) to use it wisely.
But too much of the world is caught up in “the passion” of trying to force others, change them, and take things away from them (like racism, sexism, judgementalism, bias, bigotry etc?). The only force in the world that can remove these things from a person . . . is their own choice. We cannot rip it out of them, shame them out of it, even “educate” (or indoctrinate?) it out of them.
68 responses to “Do you define life, or does life define you?”
It’s both. I define certain aspect: what I consume (provided said food/ drink is available), what I wear (provided I happen to do laundry and it’s clean or simply wear dirty clothes). Some has been defined long before I existed. The house I am living i, unless I want to make structural changes to it. The city where I live (unless I want to go to jail I can’t reroute things such as utilities, stores, or roads without consent). The government whose laws I abide by (unless of course I get them to change through legal or not-so-legal means).
@Jear77
You’re on a good start here.
There is the axiom that “Life happens” — whether we want it to or not. Things happened before we came along that define us in ways we might not be aware of. Things happen all around us — and sometimes right on top of us — that work to define who we are.
But then we have a say in defining ourselves, what will define us and how. As with most of my posts, this is about exercising control and responsibility over ourselves. Events beyond our control may leave their marks on us. But we get to choose what we will do with those marks upon us.
@griz the thing is that even the best thing out there, at least according to you, hasn’t done anything to SOLVE the world’s problems. Talking about it is one thing. Giving money is another. Elimination where it’s never seen again is an entirely different situation.
@Jear77
Become the change you wish to see in the world. When enough people accomplish this, the world’s problems will reduce astronomically; leaving us with more time and energy to deal with the very few this might not address.
Perhaps the “elimination” mindset itself is at the root of too many of life’s issues? We too often run around trying to eliminate the very things that help define us, make us strong and effective.
Think back to the 23rd Psalm. Where is it our feast comes and our head is annointed with oil (wisdom, life)? “In the presence of our enemies”. How can one be in the presence . . . of something one has “eliminated”??
@griz the idea of solving something once and for all means you’ll never see it again NEITHER will anyone else in any other iteration. Even the best of our medicines will never kill off germs, diseases, conditions, We simply postpone the inevitable, pushing off having to deal with it until later
@Jear77
There’s good wisdom in this observation.
Yet do you see our abundant attempts to exclude, to remove, to eliminate, to eradicate? They are all simply sweeping messes under the rug — where they build up; morph; even mutate (mwa ha haa!) to come raging out when we least expect them.
Consider what is happening with the white-supremacy surge that has seemingly taken a lot of people by surprise.
@griz the problem of racism is one that COULD potentially be solved with education. But is there enough in the world to be able to show that we are all ONE people?
@Jear77
Education does not always override feelings. People know beyond any question that smoking is a fatal addiction. But the feeling keeps them doing it.
@griz 23 & me has an entertaining advertisement starring “Gru” from the “Despicable me” franchise. I think that much of the problem with education is that it seems boring and disconnected from the real world. Maybe making it funny and entertaining can break through the most close-minded people.
@Jear77
Education is good; but I think you underestimate how controlling feelings can be.
People can know something, and be in total agreement that it is bad; but still do it anyways at the behest of feelings.
@griz part of the education would be ignoring those impulses!
@Jear77
Then our race’s education system in all its forms and as a whole is a failure on this point.
Because who out there is not ruled by their feelings in impulses a lot of the time?
There is a very great tendency to hold that are human institutions like science and education have somehow exceeded us and the core evils that define us.
It’s like we are trying to forget or pretend that what is of us, is not of us!
@griz there are some things that we have impulses on that are GOOD to ignore, others not so much. For instance, could you imagine a world where everyone ate nothing but that which was nutritious, and we were never allowed to enjoy anything that was the slightest bit unhealthy? How boring would life be unless you really LIKED being a rawfood vegan and needing to avoid eating anything that didn’t meet the profile of healthiness you conformed to.
On the other hand, impulses to do things that will ALWAYS come back to bite us in the butt should be taught to avoid, and as a friend says “no excuses.”
@Jear77
I have never said that the feelings urges of our flesh can’t serve a purpose.
I have said that there is a difference between us having them and them having us: us mastering them and them mastering us. Which is “the tool” the other uses?
And in this it is just like with any relationship. If all one sees are just their own feelings, there is no relationship with anything other than one’s own self.
And one’s own feelings and trespasses, will be reflected onto the other, as accusations for the failing of the relationship.
@griz everything except the last paragraph i understood and can partially agree with, but not the ideas behind it, ad you’re indirectly talking about life/ god, which i addressed in another conversation.
@Jear77
My personal observation is that all things are ultimately about life/God; or the antithesis.
This ties into the axiom that no one can serve two masters.
For my last paragraph, consider any relationship where the participants are mainly using each other for personal gain. There is an overwhelming tendency to take credit for the positives; while laying blame for the negatives on the other.
Whether that other is a co-worker, a partner, an ethnic/political/religious group, a Congress . . . or God!
Feelings/ego as master, can brook no other conclusion.
@griz Yet if both parties agree to the use and are completely transparent in what they want, of what harm is there?
What’s bad though is the machinations of god, biblically… EVERY human being is, for lack of a better term, a pawn in a giant game of chess. That’s problematic to me. And we humans have no say, no “out” as it were to be a non-combatant to avoid the conflict, avoid both parties altogether…
@Jear77
The harm is codependency masquerading as relationship.
Just because one might fancy that is God they would use all things weaker than them as pawns, doesn’t mean God would.
This returns to the concept of something not behaving as humans do, being very alien to us!
@griz isn’t codependency the very thing god wants/ demands that of a Master/ servant (slave)?
@Jear77
If we’ve only known dysfunctional, functional can seem quite . . . alien.
@griz What works in one person’s world doesn’t in another. As the saying goes “one’s man’s trash is another’s treasure.
@Jear77
A functional definition of “Truth”, is that which works for everyone.
Even science recognizes the value of a Grand Unification Theory!
Which would you say is the higher and nobler cause? That which draws together and unifies; or that which divides and segregates (isolates)?
@Jear77
The only “natural out” to physical life is physical death.
The only “supernatural out” to spiritual life is spiritual death. There appears to be no Door Number 3.
And it may piss you off to find such binaries in the universe as energy/lack of energy, light/lack of light, heat/lack of heat.
I’m sorry reality pisses you off. You may just have to suck it up . . . Or else live your life in misery.
@griz Or fail to play their game and be, as another person stated on here to be completely and totally undefined by such things, and should an eternity exist, deal with it at that point, as there’s no way possibly (once again) to determine spiritual realities until after death, so why worry about it? Hell you say? The god portrayed in the bible is not one I’d want to serve eternally, for he set up the situation to begin with to make the rigged choice, which really isn’t one at all.
@Jear77
There is no way to determine relational realities until you go out and risk having one.
There is no way to determine your reality as a parent until you have children.
There is no way to determine your reality as a design engineer until you risk getting an education and applying for a job.
I suppose one could refuse to play light’s game and refuse to be defined by the light. Good luck with that! because even if one dwells in total darkness, the fear of being defined by the Light becomes a defining factor.
One can be aware of things without being afraid. (Worry is fear-based).
The only time one has no choice, is when they are owned. I am God’s child; and I have infinite choices!
@griz Haven’t I said before that I have completely embraced my hypocrisy? Therefore, anything that is incongruous is meaningless to me. So no matter the light, it’s not going to do anything as it’s simply part of the convoluted, complex person who I am, and it matters nothing to me. Accusations, even guilt in a matter mean nothing if the person so accused (or convicted) cares not.
@Jear77
What can be said of the person who chooses to remain in a structure slated for demolition?
@griz in real life, that person would be killed. In eternity, that’s what you’re ultimately referring to, nothing. It’s a pre-rigged choice, made the moment creation was set into motion by the one who gave the false dichotomy of god and satan. An uninformed choice i.e. no even tangential scientific evidence of this reality isn’t a choice at all.
@Jear77
What is manipulating you?
Could you have done better than God?
Bonus question: do you think there is a child who has ever lived who hasn’t thought they could do things better then their parents?
@griz the fact that there is no true choice is a manipulation in and of itself simply due to my lack of omniscience. You say that the limited knowledge we have was worth the possibility of hell? No! Only in omniscience can we make true choices and be unable to be manipulated by forces outside ourselves.
I define the bubble world I live in. It is close to home. It is home. Friends are close and like-minded, peace-loving ,Trump supporters, gun owners, who enjoy get-togethers. Prayer meetings and classes. I am re-learning gardening for Arizona desert gardening. I have a worm farm making black gold compost for me to use in my garden. I have a good man in my life. I enjoy cooking. It is cozy and I like it that way.
@ladybarbara
We each have this “personal kingdom” in which we are the monarch and get absolute say how things are going to be. Some choose to rule it wisely and others for various reasons, don’t. They end up being ruled by what is within them rather than ruling it.
Our little kingdom, is part of a larger kingdom, in which we don’t have the same say. It “happens” and reaches into and influences our inner kingdom whether we want it to or not. And denying that it does really doesn’t stop it from happening. The same as pretending one is not hurt doesn’t negate that one is hurt!
This is a bit of an invite to exploration as to how much we are in control of our inner kingdom; how much the outer kingdom reaches in and to what effect; and how “nicely” these two kingdoms come together in and around us.
Those who are controlled by their inner kingdom (feelings, emotions), cannot help be controlled by the outer kingdom; putting them even more out-of-control of themselves. Control of oneself is the first step to exercising
And there are those who try to totally divorce the two kingdoms and end up living a kind of fantasy existence with the two kingdoms essentially “not talking to each other”. I don’t see this as a healthy thing.
“Relationship with” is always better than “isolation” imho.
Life isn’t definite.
People aren’t definite.
Why pretend they are?
Using the word ‘define’ seems to be an awkward replacement for the word ‘control’.
I think this replacement happens because if ‘control’ is used under such a binary query, one will come to the false conclusion, which so often happens with binary thinking, one has no control, under the constraints of a two choice fallacy.
I guess to answer the question; No
I don’t define life & it doesn’t define me.
@luftballooneyegouge
My thought is that something that “defines” you, has succeeded in “controlling” you. Identifying you. Which is the antithesis of us getting to define (control) ourselves.
I find it helps to remember that with one choice (one’s inner kingdom), one has very great inherent control over over it . . . provided one chooses to exercise it the same way one would exercise any muscle to greater strength/ability.
The other choice (controlling the greater outward “kingdom” or reality) often doesn’t submit to our control attempts.
So as follow-up to your last statement . . . what, if anything, defines you? If the answer is “nothing” it could lead to a situation of one lacking all definition.
@griz
I’m more than comfortable to be indefinable.
@luftballooneyegouge
Even by yourself?
@griz
I’m much more interested in navigating the wonders of life than making life bend to my will.
@luftballooneyegouge
What about making you bend to your will?
Life is perhaps more about controlling ourselves than controlling reality around us.
@griz
Controlling ourselves is controlling reality.
We’re always bending to our own will. The glory or folly is packaged in what we’re bending over for.
I’ve never suffered from lack of self-control. So, I might lack insights into the trials and tribs of what you seem to be looking for.
@luftballooneyegouge
Fully controlling ourselves only controlls the temporary pocket-dimension we call ego.
And over time I’ve realized that many things that I thought were control, were really just capitulation. (Often two things I didn’t see or want to see).
If you’ve somehow escaped this, I guess you get to pass go and collect $200!
@griz don’t monks of some eastern religions do this by by viewing reality as an illusion, and escaping self and ego through meditation and self denial?
@Jear77
Yes,
They hold that since eternity is longer, what is happening now will have all the substance of a dream in the time to come.
But that foolish choices within the dream, impact them in eternity.
Ascetism is viewed as an exercise in mastering that which is temporary so it doesn’t try to eclipse that which is eternal.
@griz I’ve been so poor, and in such difficult circumstances I might as well be an ascetic due to being unable to get a job!
@Jear77
The face of poverty has changed over the years with inflation and materialism. But the spirit of it, the effect it has on the human soul, hasn’t. It’s not a nice thing to endure.
Ascetism however is more about self denial. Having access to things but refusing to partake of them. Many spiritual teachings, including the Bible, speak highly of fasting.
But we live in a society that tries to define itself totally by physical stuff, feelings, urges, desires, luxuries, emotions. We are at a point where most would struggle to give up one of these things for a period.
Giving up the necessity of physical sustenance for the sake of spiritual exercise, could prove next to impossible for most.
@griz The problem with doing such things if one has a choice is one needs to remain in balance. When I don’t sleep properly, I don’t function, make mistakes. Also, when I don’t eat after awhile I don’t function and make mistakes. And i prefer functionality vs making mistakes if at all possible. But if I make mistakes, that’s life because I don’t always have time to eat or sleep properly.
@jear77
The idea of both a fast and ascetism, is to put ourselves off balance! Not at our best.
It is saying that we crave things spiritual and divine so much, that we would willingly impoverish ourselves physically.
All we are giving up . . . Is that which is going to die and be buried anyway .
All of our physical exercises and observances can only take us to the grave. No farther.
One is saying, “I understand what the true priorities are here. And I am willing to be dead to self so I may be alive in Christ.”
Were you made aware of this before you recited the incantation religions have attached to inviting Christ into your life?
@griz Let me put it this way. At present because i have so few filters, as it is, when I’m off balance, I not only tend to insult others, but endanger lives, not only my own, but everyone around me. So by willingly partaking in such a thing, could end me up in prison, due to being off my game. The crime would be called “negligence.” And saying “oh, I was fasting” would be no excuse. It’s like a diabetic crashing into a crowd because s/he has low or high blood sugar. If they know they have diabetes willingly don’t have their blood sugar under control, it’s criminal.
@jear77
I too found that I had a lot of excuses for not getting started.
Native cultures practiced The Vision Quest — combining a fast with ascetism — in isolated areas, where one was no threat to anyone.
And part of “seeking purity”, involves identifying and confronting the pollution within us. one needs to own what they are capable of, if one truly wants to know and control themselves.
To not take this step, means letting the feelings and emotions and urges remain in control.
This is . . . “the flesh that opposes the spirit”. If the flesh is in control, the spirit can never be approached let alone known, or participated with.
One remains “a lost soul” . . . Regardless of what incantations they cited.
@griz I just know my body well enough to know the natural consequences because I’ve experienced them EVERY DAY for the last at least 6 months or longer as far as food goes. My blood sugar control would need to be LOTS better, which it won’t be until I’m able to go to the doctor… but I can’t because I’m in limbo as far as living situations go. And well over 20 years for sleep deprivation, which would accompany the lack of food…
@Jear77
Just a musing: I wonder if it upset Jesus metabolism to die on the cross not for his\God’s sake but ours?
This was his part of the New Covenant.
Our part is to give up far less, but also for our own sake, not his. Fasting from food or creature comforts is just a symbol; again more for our sake than God’s. We are not trying to earn purchase or prove anything to God. Once the ritual is over we go back to eating and our comforts.
Our part of the New Covenant is the ongoing sacrifice of our foolish ego and pride; things we only THINK are of value beyond measure. But they lead only to death; and are the very things that prevent spiritual process in us. These are the things that have us wanting God to jump through our hoops, and have us crafting excuses and personal exclusions.
This is the “broken thing” God asks that we give to him unreservedly. But then, as per God’s nature, He gives it back to us fixed and in abundant good measure. (We give up foolish things leading to death, he gives back wise things leading to Life)
The symbols of fasting and asceticism can be custom designed yet still retain their symbolism to us. The idea is that they are difficult; uncomfortable; unbalancing; even inconvenient!
Because our required ongoing sacrifice of foolish ego and pride is seen by us to be all of these things and more.
But mistakenly so.
I have yet to sacrifice anything to God according to his Spirit (not mine!) that has not come back “fixed”, and in proper measure.
@griz How many people were claiming to be christ, the messiah were crucified during that time period of history? There were a LOT of people who matched that description, because the Jews were yearning for freedom. And why do Christians venerate only one of them… yet I have a sneaky suspicion that some of the stories of what he supposedly did were the result of a compilation of figures coalescing into one figure… It’s not as if they had photographs back then to ask “did you see this man.” Words can only convey so much.
In regards to fasting, with as many mental and physical problems as I have, and due to the fact that I would risk endangering lives because I can’t concentrate… I doubt that even if i were a believer that Jesus would want me to do that. The command do not kill is such that we not put ourselves even accidentally into a situation where due to a momentary lapse of judgement someone else could potentially get injured… so if someone got even so much as a slightly pulled muscle, a pinprick or papercut due to our negligence, we would be breaking the commandment to not kill.
@Jear77
I give up. How many fools would lay claim to a title that Jewish law would require their stoning to death if they could not deliver on the Promises of it?
And where can one read about them?
I think you know why Jesus stood apart from all others; unless you were asleep in Sunday School!
I understand our current feelings wanting to rewrite what is recorded. But this is a good test as to whether our Almighty is just our feelings in this moment; or something greater and more enduring. The proof of Christ, is the Spirit of Christ. Christ did what he did only because of the Spirit that was in him. The changes and the power in my life happened according to that same Spirit as described in Scripture.
As with any fellowship, the proof is in participation: not in the damn petri dish!
(We are not worthy of thy plastic translucence or pinkish agar medium!)
Nor is it in spying on them, as proposed in another thread! :p
As for all the excuses: what can be said?
When that imprisoning and limiting spirit is our current Almighty, it controls our perceptions and thoughts unto what we are ALLOWED to see and ponder.
That is why I prefer An Almighty, who doesn’t want to control me. Who wants me to be free to learn how not to be imprisoned and controlled by my dying flesh.
@griz Thank you for giving up. FINALLY! I assume I’ll never hear any words out of you regarding this topic ever again? Very good.
@jear77
Ditto?
Although as I have said, you ask some very good questions and take some interesting directions.
I will still respond to these
Yo Griz. I think they’re polar opposites of the definition game. Life just is. It has no need to define itself or anything it produces. It just is what it is and does what it does. We, on the other hand, can ONLY define. It’s our super power. We define anything as anything and then we make it real by believing in it.
@TruthDistillery
It is more like we TRY to make it real. And if life “complies”, the result is happiness. This is our superpower and our curse; because it can come to own us.
My thought is that we need some definition in our lives.
Otherwise we are just a big blur on the landscape!
@griz, so what if we are only smudges on a petri dish? Would that make the life you’re living now less rich? I’m becoming more open to the possibility that none of this means anything.
@TruthDistillery
I try to freely ponder the joys and travails of the smudge who discovers they are but a smudge!
We may think the petri dish defines and limits us, and life within it is ultimately meaningless.
But what of the day when we might escape the dish? Everything up to that point will have been exercise for what is to come. That’s far from meaningless.
And if nothing is to come, we can have fun being the strongest and most joyful, most fulfilled smudge in the dish!
And there is meaning in this also!
i suppose i let life define itself? im not being glib. what i mean by this is that ive made my own choices, conscious or not, and now i make more choices based on where those choices brought me. sometimes i feel like the train is on a track i dont remember laying down, but it really is up to me, isnt it, whether i stay on this track or not. so much is up to us that we dont notice or accept…
what i mean by life defining itself is also this… i put something into play, and then i roll with where that decision takes me. so maybe i play along with the definitions? or if i dont like them i change them. or i change my place in them?
its like telling myself i cant necessarily control the moment but i can control how i act in it. i cant necessarily control how i feel but i can control what i do. if i am mindful enough.
so maybe i define life more than i think i do, even when i am not making effort to exercise above said control?
what
@BelleMadre
I think there is a difference between trying to control life before it happens, and “channeling” into paths as it happens (or after it has happened) that we wish.
The former leads to stress, frustration, and being even less in control of oneself. The latter is a kind of acceptance of “what is” and then turning it into something beautiful. It leads to peace and joy and more control than one might first think they are able to exercise.
@griz i agree to a point. i do think we have more say in the flow of our lives than we accept some times. but i also think if we expend too much energy thinking too far ahead and not focusing on the now, we will indeed be more stressed etc… maybe its about planning, or awareness. putting into motion things we think we can handle. making the right choices?
but i am also into the idea of acceptance. acceptance is freeing. knowing we cant control everything but can direct our energy in the most peaceful way. thats an ideal id like to strive for.
@BelleMadre
I like the analogy of Life being like a river. We get to participate in its flow . . . unless we choose to fight its flow. And then we just tire ourselves out getting bounced off rocked and sucked through strainers!
I wonder if “acceptance” is related to “contentment”? I think it is.
But “contentment” had connotations that some people don’t like; as if it’s stagnation or apathy. But it’s not. To me it’s like a rejoicing in “what is”, while still being open to “what may yet come”.
@griz i do agree, and think that acceptance is related to contentment. but instantly there is a rising up in me, the part of me that says hey wait, we like having some control. is it ok to want a balance in this>? to go with the flow but perhaps to choose which river to raft down? to accept what comes up ahead on that river, because we chose to set our raft on that particular water?
metaphors aside, i guess i have mixed feelings. i feel i would be a lot calmer and less restless if i were more accepting. but maybe i just havent found myself in the right circumstances yet. maybe im not done steering
@BelleMadre
My thoughts turn to the difference between being “safe in the raft” bobbing over the surface, and actually swimming IN the river.
Perhaps it’s something not a lot of people have done, in which case the analogy would fail. But it’s an exercise I would heartily recommend.
Once in the grips of the river, one cannot say, “Wait! I’d prefer another river!”. You are in it, and you deal with what comes.
Either fighting and screaming and anguishing it’s not going where you want it to . . . or having a hoot!
There are ways to exercise control in the flow; but such happens by the river’s rules; not yours. At the end of the day there are those who are at peace within the flow, exercising the control they can by the river’s rules . . . and those who thrash and splash, anguish and just wear themselves out.
Both eventually arrive at the ocean.
But one is spent; while the other is fresh, energized and ready for whatever comes next.
@griz so true!
i suppose one could study a map first, or at least have a sense of what is ahead. like hey im going to take the river to the right not the path to the left, or of course the other, more practical sounding option, vice versa
or choose how we start out. are we in a craft or standing hip deep? do we have boots on?
@BelleMadre
A map! Why didn’t I think of that?
Thinking back I’m reminded of all the “river swims” my buddies and I did where we would just jump in and go. Our only use for the map was to plan an extraction point and how to get back home again. A little shiver goes through me when I think of once when we “eddied-out” after some rapids, right at the brink of a respectable waterfall!
It’s perhaps linked to the male proclivity to not read the instructions? We tend to glance at them for the pictures of how the finished product will look . . . then we put down our heads and charge at it head-on!
When I read this question, I think about how “life”, (because I see life as one big substance),has defined me in ways. For example, I, unlike Neo wasn’t given a choice to take the red pill or the blue pill. I was given the blue pill when I was born. So the only red pill available to me now is critical thinking.
In thinking about this q, I agree with @truthdistillery. we, as humans, are mostly known as being the most advanced living organism. What sets us apart maybe is our ability to perceive. We can use this ability for good or bad, but even those words are mere definitions, and that is where I get hung up. We could try and define them, such as saying “bad” is anything that harms others, but that doesn’t exactly work because sometimes people harm others without even knowing they are doing it or that the action is harmful to a particular person.
At any rate, when I am in nature and I am quiet, I get in touch with what is there, I synchronize and harmonize with “life”, all that is, because there is no other noise in my head from all the other humans who are using their “special gift”. so what if there were a way to synchronize and harmonize with the other humans?
Well, one way I can think of is to remove judgment from all the humans.
At the end of the day, I think the answer is both. Life has defined me, and I have defined it.
Every day, I have to remember my special gift, and find a way to use it to serve life.
@Scarlett
I wonder if what sets us apart is not just perceiving, but exercising choice? What good is it if we perceive the cliff our lemming-herd is about to tumble over, if we don’t make a conscious choice to not run over it? Despite our perception, we would be no greater than the lemmings if we didn’t exercise choice!
The rest of the animals appear to have no choice. They only have feelings and instincts and are “owned” by them. We seem to have been gifted choice in how much our instincts (our flesh) controls (owns) us; and how much we own them.
“so what if there were a way to synchronize and harmonize with the other humans? . . . Well, one way I can think of is to remove judgment from all the humans”
I don’t think it is our authority to “take away” anything from another person exercising their Human gift to choose freely. We can try to gift them the realization of 1) the ability to choose and 2) to use it wisely.
But too much of the world is caught up in “the passion” of trying to force others, change them, and take things away from them (like racism, sexism, judgementalism, bias, bigotry etc?). The only force in the world that can remove these things from a person . . . is their own choice. We cannot rip it out of them, shame them out of it, even “educate” (or indoctrinate?) it out of them.
They have to choose.