I am not with anyone, but the Father and his angels. I am not against everyone not with us.
The saying is a rip off of Jesus. That was a very different scenario then any other. That means those who do not accept the word of God are against us.
There are plenty of Christians who are deeply wrong in what they believe. They do not preach the gospels, at all. Yet, they think because they know there is a God and they know Jesus is the Son of God that somehow will save them.
However, even Satan and his angels know there is a God and that Jesus is the son of God.
A major part of the message of Jesus is to not be judgmental.
I find that many Christians are extremely judgmental.
They create rules to follow God did not create. They prefer a religion that is “do this” and “do not do that”.
In your case, I do not believe you are a Christian. You certainly think you are. But, you are very hypocritical and self-righteous.
You never post on the gospels, also.
Can you change and be saved? I do not know. I doubt it. You like to live in your own egotistical dream world. You have to leave that if you want to be a Christian.
@five2one
Jesus actually proposed a qualifier to this, when the disciples asked him to condemn those who were prophesying in his name. He said in essence, “Leave them be. If they are not against me they are for me”.
The equation is one of balance.
I find that it is not so much Christians who are judgmental, as humans. Humans who are still of the flesh and therefore children of death.
What you think I am is an unimportant judgment. And unfortunately, linked to the Biblical and psychological assessment on the nature of judging I offered in the other post. “On the very point where you presume to judge others you are actually judging yourself”.
Ditto, with trying to pronounce me as beyond hope. I believe this is the very reason why Jesus told us not to judge: we condemn ourselves as not of the Spirit.
@griz You could be a Christian, but you clearly have judged me long ago.
We all judge, we are asked to do so very carefully is all. It is not true that whenever we judge, we are judged.
I judge you based on qualifiers I do not possess:
-> You make negative judgments about people but refuse to be direct about telling them on it.
So they get no chance to defend themselves, and you escape responsibility for your judgment.
I believe your reasons for judging me are shameful, which is why you never say your exact reasons.
-> You apparently believe that I somehow think I am Jesus, which tells me you believe I show a lot of commonality of Jesus — yet you judge me anyway knowing this.
This just means I act like Jesus often. Not always. So you take that to mean I think I am.
If you think I am a lot like Jesus, then your negative judgments fall back on your self.
We are called to be like Jesus, and I am proud you actually see me as acting like Jesus… even though you judge me negatively for it.
You could be a Christian, but I think you are not honest about many of your beliefs. And that means you are ashamed to speak them out directly. I do not think that is acting like Jesus would act, at all.
@five2one
What can possibly be said of our judging that someone has judged us?
But that it is shameful because they have not pronounced judgment on us??
@five2one
I have noted the fruit abundantly and freely offered; and this as per Jesus’ explicit instructions.
And I have stopped there upon noticing them; as per Jesus’ explicit and repeated instructions. The book is not closed. It is still very open. Just waiting for us to write the next page.
If you feel this has judged you, you need to take that up with The Judge.
And that’s not me.
I’m just the observer, the discerner, and the teacher; as per Jesus’ instructions.
@five2one
Throw your line somewhere else. There’s no fish biting here!
Your fruit is what you choose to bring forth abundantly and regularly and without effort over time.
Fellowship with The Spirit Of Life renews heart and mind so our natural fruit so it is more and more like that of Christ’s over time.
@griz it’s needlessly devisive.
What happens when you say that and you later wish to persuade the person to join your side? You’ve already set up a thing of it’s now or never.
@Jear77
I would observe and assert that it is the victimhood power groups that function divisibly upon our society. They are the ones who apply this logic, casting as haters and phobics, anyone who does not come and sing with them
My question to all is, “Do you see them and do you know what debunked idelolgy from the 20th Century this represents?”
@Jear77
I do see it. And I’ve gone to very great lengths to show you that I’ve seen it. But it’s like your past starts up this movie in your head that hijacks all the characters and dialogue unto the only possible ending you’ve ordained.
I’ll say it again. The religion of Christianity is a scourge. The same as any other religiously ideological system is.
And I’ll say this again. Very very very few churches teach the totality of what Christ taught. They teach religious and ideological variants on it.
This is what you got sucked into; and what still sabotages most of the discussions that we have.
@griz never can apply to many good things. You wouldn’t agree to do drugs. You would never want to perdorm necromancy. You can’t imagine gorging yourself until you barf. It’s beyond the pale to sell yourself into sexual slavery. So don’t tell me fhe concept of never is always a bad one
@griz you’re not going to tell me there’s ever an appropriate now for things that will do you (phyical body, mental state) or your reputation permanent harm because someone misinterpreted what’s going on. Even as an accident the things i mentioned should be avoided like the plague
@Jear77
Our ability to mention a few extremes that should always be avoided as a matter of wisdom does not mean that we are all-wise, in all things to be avoided.
Even a cursory glance around should show all but the thickest clump that we are a species that easily justifies foolishness as wisdom and wisdom as foolishness.
I’ll say that again. Our ability to mention a few “Nevers”, by no stretch of the imagination makes us masters of the Now.
@luftballooneyegouge
That it is. And it’s not just extremely effective; it is socially fatal. (We have repeated social experiments in the 20th Century that all ended the same catastrophic way)
Can you recognize the groups in our society that are actively and aggressively using this tactic? Not just using it to defame their opposition, but trying to disrupt and silence any thought not of their own echo-chamber?
@griz
I don’t recognize it as groups. I recognize it as humans themselves that mob up.
If you’re trying to cast shade on #metoo or LBGTXYZ, sure there’s hyperbole & some paranoia, because it comes from humans,…humans that are the blowback to how many centuries or millenniums of being 2nd class humans, no-one on Earth can say with certainty.
I wouldn’t say they’re being aggressive on the human scale of aggression.
I would say that’s possibly paranoia, most certainly hyperbole, & maybe both.
@luftballooneyegouge
I hear and receive what you’re saying. I don’t think I’m trying to cast shade on these groups/mobs: so much as I’m noting the shade the ideologies that have been infected are increasingly casting upon themselves.
The caution is, that this is a process recent history has seen before — and his ended catastrophically every single time. All the way from the few venomous zealots, to the many “nice” people who are simply nodding approval or going along for the ride on the justification that “at least some good is being done”.
Until suddenly more harm is being done and they’re now afraid to say anything about it lest they become “enemies of the movement”. In every single historical case bar none, the transition has been Insidious and irreversible.
There are certainly social issues that we need to address. But we don’t need the victimhood power groups to address them.
My caution is that we would be wise to pull the “nice” people-power out of these groups, and reestablish movements that are not going to try to power themselves with a modified Marxist engine. (Victim-groups vs oppressor-groups)
30 responses to ““He who sings not with us today is against us” – Mayakovski””
I am not with anyone, but the Father and his angels. I am not against everyone not with us.
The saying is a rip off of Jesus. That was a very different scenario then any other. That means those who do not accept the word of God are against us.
There are plenty of Christians who are deeply wrong in what they believe. They do not preach the gospels, at all. Yet, they think because they know there is a God and they know Jesus is the Son of God that somehow will save them.
However, even Satan and his angels know there is a God and that Jesus is the son of God.
A major part of the message of Jesus is to not be judgmental.
I find that many Christians are extremely judgmental.
They create rules to follow God did not create. They prefer a religion that is “do this” and “do not do that”.
In your case, I do not believe you are a Christian. You certainly think you are. But, you are very hypocritical and self-righteous.
You never post on the gospels, also.
Can you change and be saved? I do not know. I doubt it. You like to live in your own egotistical dream world. You have to leave that if you want to be a Christian.
@five2one
Jesus actually proposed a qualifier to this, when the disciples asked him to condemn those who were prophesying in his name. He said in essence, “Leave them be. If they are not against me they are for me”.
The equation is one of balance.
I find that it is not so much Christians who are judgmental, as humans. Humans who are still of the flesh and therefore children of death.
What you think I am is an unimportant judgment. And unfortunately, linked to the Biblical and psychological assessment on the nature of judging I offered in the other post. “On the very point where you presume to judge others you are actually judging yourself”.
Ditto, with trying to pronounce me as beyond hope. I believe this is the very reason why Jesus told us not to judge: we condemn ourselves as not of the Spirit.
( and that’s from the Gospels)
@griz You could be a Christian, but you clearly have judged me long ago.
We all judge, we are asked to do so very carefully is all. It is not true that whenever we judge, we are judged.
I judge you based on qualifiers I do not possess:
-> You make negative judgments about people but refuse to be direct about telling them on it.
So they get no chance to defend themselves, and you escape responsibility for your judgment.
I believe your reasons for judging me are shameful, which is why you never say your exact reasons.
-> You apparently believe that I somehow think I am Jesus, which tells me you believe I show a lot of commonality of Jesus — yet you judge me anyway knowing this.
This just means I act like Jesus often. Not always. So you take that to mean I think I am.
If you think I am a lot like Jesus, then your negative judgments fall back on your self.
We are called to be like Jesus, and I am proud you actually see me as acting like Jesus… even though you judge me negatively for it.
You could be a Christian, but I think you are not honest about many of your beliefs. And that means you are ashamed to speak them out directly. I do not think that is acting like Jesus would act, at all.
@five2one
What can possibly be said of our judging that someone has judged us?
But that it is shameful because they have not pronounced judgment on us??
@griz You judge me for some reason, but you will never say why.
We see from the court system it is good to tell people what they believe you are wrong about. It is bad not to.
I have no idea what accusations you hold against me in your heart, but you clearly do.
@five2one
I have noted the fruit abundantly and freely offered; and this as per Jesus’ explicit instructions.
And I have stopped there upon noticing them; as per Jesus’ explicit and repeated instructions. The book is not closed. It is still very open. Just waiting for us to write the next page.
If you feel this has judged you, you need to take that up with The Judge.
And that’s not me.
I’m just the observer, the discerner, and the teacher; as per Jesus’ instructions.
@griz What is the fruit of my words and actions? Speak english please, and not beat around the bush.
@five2one
Your fruit is a matter of record.
As is mine.
If you fear it judges you, you have the power in Christ to do something about it.
Do you not?
@griz My fruit, you mean, as Satan?
@five2one
Throw your line somewhere else. There’s no fish biting here!
Your fruit is what you choose to bring forth abundantly and regularly and without effort over time.
Fellowship with The Spirit Of Life renews heart and mind so our natural fruit so it is more and more like that of Christ’s over time.
Provided we remain in the True Vine.
Better hope the singers can actually carry a tune. What’d happen if those singing sounded awful? If / when i sing i need a bushel basket to sing in.
@Jear77
I’ll bet you could put a meadowlark to shame if you were singing about something you believed in.
But there is a conspicuous lack of science hymns!
@griz no… seriously. I’m TONE DEAF.
@Jear77
So are most rappers.
But any thoughts on how this might apply to various power groups active today?
@griz it’s needlessly devisive.
What happens when you say that and you later wish to persuade the person to join your side? You’ve already set up a thing of it’s now or never.
@Jear77
In what kind of a place would it be derisive to invite people to see and to think?
Marxism comes inevitably to mind for anyone with a sense of History.
The only two sides are truth and not truth. And only one is afraid of seeing and thinking.
@griz no no. I misspelled. Divisive. As in separating. As in dividing.
@Jear77
I would observe and assert that it is the victimhood power groups that function divisibly upon our society. They are the ones who apply this logic, casting as haters and phobics, anyone who does not come and sing with them
My question to all is, “Do you see them and do you know what debunked idelolgy from the 20th Century this represents?”
@griz heh. It’s the same message as the Christian when it comes to the final judgement. It’s ironic that you can’t see it.
@Jear77
I do see it. And I’ve gone to very great lengths to show you that I’ve seen it. But it’s like your past starts up this movie in your head that hijacks all the characters and dialogue unto the only possible ending you’ve ordained.
I’ll say it again. The religion of Christianity is a scourge. The same as any other religiously ideological system is.
And I’ll say this again. Very very very few churches teach the totality of what Christ taught. They teach religious and ideological variants on it.
This is what you got sucked into; and what still sabotages most of the discussions that we have.
@griz given “now or never” scenarios, many people will choose never.
@Jear77
But how is that not a worship of death?
@griz never can apply to many good things. You wouldn’t agree to do drugs. You would never want to perdorm necromancy. You can’t imagine gorging yourself until you barf. It’s beyond the pale to sell yourself into sexual slavery. So don’t tell me fhe concept of never is always a bad one
@Jear77
Cognitive disconnect.
You’ll have to relink “Now or Never” as opposing concepts for me.
@griz you’re not going to tell me there’s ever an appropriate now for things that will do you (phyical body, mental state) or your reputation permanent harm because someone misinterpreted what’s going on. Even as an accident the things i mentioned should be avoided like the plague
@Jear77
Our ability to mention a few extremes that should always be avoided as a matter of wisdom does not mean that we are all-wise, in all things to be avoided.
Even a cursory glance around should show all but the thickest clump that we are a species that easily justifies foolishness as wisdom and wisdom as foolishness.
I’ll say that again. Our ability to mention a few “Nevers”, by no stretch of the imagination makes us masters of the Now.
It’s hyperbolic paranoia taken to the extreme to shape reality around it.
It just says ‘everybody’s against us’ while also issuing a proclamation of conflict to those that don’t join up.
……and to a herd of hyperbolic paranoid people, it’s effective.
@luftballooneyegouge
That it is. And it’s not just extremely effective; it is socially fatal. (We have repeated social experiments in the 20th Century that all ended the same catastrophic way)
Can you recognize the groups in our society that are actively and aggressively using this tactic? Not just using it to defame their opposition, but trying to disrupt and silence any thought not of their own echo-chamber?
@griz
I don’t recognize it as groups. I recognize it as humans themselves that mob up.
If you’re trying to cast shade on #metoo or LBGTXYZ, sure there’s hyperbole & some paranoia, because it comes from humans,…humans that are the blowback to how many centuries or millenniums of being 2nd class humans, no-one on Earth can say with certainty.
I wouldn’t say they’re being aggressive on the human scale of aggression.
I would say that’s possibly paranoia, most certainly hyperbole, & maybe both.
@luftballooneyegouge
I hear and receive what you’re saying. I don’t think I’m trying to cast shade on these groups/mobs: so much as I’m noting the shade the ideologies that have been infected are increasingly casting upon themselves.
The caution is, that this is a process recent history has seen before — and his ended catastrophically every single time. All the way from the few venomous zealots, to the many “nice” people who are simply nodding approval or going along for the ride on the justification that “at least some good is being done”.
Until suddenly more harm is being done and they’re now afraid to say anything about it lest they become “enemies of the movement”. In every single historical case bar none, the transition has been Insidious and irreversible.
There are certainly social issues that we need to address. But we don’t need the victimhood power groups to address them.
My caution is that we would be wise to pull the “nice” people-power out of these groups, and reestablish movements that are not going to try to power themselves with a modified Marxist engine. (Victim-groups vs oppressor-groups)