Yes, but I think they need to advocate more strongly such as eliminating the gender pay gap, and supporting females in more high power roles.
In any case, have you tried setting a boundary with your friend who cuts you off And answers for you? Doesn’t sound like much of a friend. I would tell him immediately, “it’s not okay for you to interrupt me or finish my thoughts.” If he can’t abide, I would find friends who can treat me with respect and is more aligned with my values.
@Scarlett Well, any friendship has its pros and cons, but either way, I have to work with him (in a sense he is, but not quite, a colleague). And the pros outweigh the cons. He is very much aligned with my values, he’s just a little rough around the edges.
I can’t just ditch a friendship because he subconsciously does something that offends me. I’ll work on him. Slowly.
@georockstar09 I have a cousin that does that to me and finishes my sentences. I go quiet, except to say, “I did not know that I was going to say that. But, please go on and tell me what I say next.” This stops her. I tell her that she can carry on both sides of our conversation while I just listen. I find it very interesting to here what I have to say. Then she tells me that I told her this story before. I let her tell stories that she has told before, then, at the end I say that it was fun hearing that again, I always enjoy her stories. I treat her the way that I would like her to treat me. (But, her skull must be made of steel and nothing penetrates.) She will not stop doing it. Some people won’t change.
@Scarlett
Differing pay for the same work is illegal in most jurisdictions.
If some employers aren’t getting this, they need to be stung by the law.
But what has become called the gender wage gap is to great degree the result of the very different ways men and women tend to work and pursue goals — and the fields they tend to favor. This has been shown in a scientific and dispassionate way by many studies. But we tend not to hear about them because they are not broadcast nearly as loudly as the studies that fan the flames of current trends and fads.
Equal opportunity to pursue your dreams is a good thing. Recognizing that men and women have different dreams and even if they are in ways similar they pursue them in different ways, seems to have been lost to the wind.
And while we’re celebrating “our dreams”, it’s good to keep in mind the often dirty, difficult, thankless “realities” that still need laborers in them to keep us fat, happy, sanitized, warm etc.
“Wage gap” is a good thing for consideration.
“Responsibility gap” is another good thing that almost entirely escapes consideration these days! “Equality” on some fronts but not others, isn’t true equality.
@Gina
This is actually very indicative of the kind of science-of-convenience that a lot of feminism relies upon. Yes, it proves very effectively that there is an innate sense of fairness, and that for equal result, equal reward is good.
But it stops there, without addressing all the wonderful variables at play not just in higher species but in the lower animals as well. Did you also notice that 1) there was no mention of the monkey’s genders and 2) it was a task so basic that there was only one way to do it! Passing a rock out a hole is a far cry from managing all the variables of huge corporation. Variables into which the innate differences between how men and women set goals and accomplish tasks are magnified.
An example that most would prefer I don’t bring up, is “equality” on road-crews. We are seeing more and more women out on road construction crews. And equal pay is a bone of contention with them.
But a sign-turner is just not the same caliber of work as someone laboring with a broom and shovel. There are an increasing number of women sign-turners out there. But as someone who almost daily sees road construction across North America I can count on the fingers of no hands the number of ladies I’ve seen doing the actual hard construction work.
So is difference in pay in this case, a “fairness” thing? Or a “privilege” thing?
This is just one of the more visible examples. Paying people differently for the same work just because of their sex is wrong. But is it the same work? Simplistic answers are rarely good ones.
Looking at just part of the picture, one can arrive at many conclusions that don’t represent the larger picture. That is what this so-called “landmark” study does.
And then emotion-charged agendas go all to town on celebrating it.
The exact same thing happened in the ’90’s when a rigged study by the AAUW “”proved”” that girls could be shown to be 50% more likely to report feeling disadvantaged and oppressed by the education system than boys . . . by stacking their study group with (iirc) 1750 girls and 250 boys to arrive at an “acceptable sample size” of 2000 participants.
And from this, politicians and policy-makers were lobbied to turn our public school system into something that actively disadvantages the boys.
Are you sure he’s cut cut cutting you off & not just getting burstingly excited that he’s found someone who thinks like he does & letting you know that he’s thinking what you are with an outburst?
@luftballooneyegouge He does it to me when I am talking to a third person. While I’m explaining something to the other person, he cuts in and explains for me, instead of just letting me do it.
@georockstar09
Sounds like a territorial workplace thing & I’m pretty dismissive of things like that. I just don’t care about status.
I would use it to my advantage. If it’s work & a part of your job, then this guy by finishing the explanation is actually taking some of your load if you plan for it. He’s predictably going to do this again, so let him. You start off and then make pauses and look his way, so he’ll jump in, then let him do the talking and fill in his blanks afterward. This way you have more control, & he’s doing work for you. If you’re worried he’s making you look bad, he’s probably already got a rep for his behavior, & you’ll look good for how you dealt with what annoys not only you. You’ll look cool & in control because you’ll be cool & in control & he’ll look like Dwight Schrute.
That was such a good talk by Justin Baldoni. When Immortal Pirate cuts my story off, I know it is because of his agenda to save time. “You told me this before.” He tells me the story punch line. Then we time-skip into what he says to answer that. I go into listening mode, as he finishes off the conversation. Yes, I do what I do with a verbal slap in the face. I go quiet. I wait to see if he cut me off to save time, or just to get my voice to stop filling the space. If it is the later, chances are that he won’t be hearing my voice for the rest of the day and that night.
I do my own cutting off, as well. The tools — his tools — in the garage workshop are off limits to me. Sooo, I buy my own tools. I heard him say to his daughter, “Barbara has more tools than I do!” Yeah and I make sure mine are of a brand — blue and gray from Lowes and black and red Husky brand from Home Depot. If the tool is blue and gray, stay away. If the tool you use is black and red, I will hit you on your head. Well, I don’t threaten to hit him in the head, but I will say, “Are those my pliers? They are Husky brand black and red.” When he finishes using them, I put them back in my red tool box. I understand why he doesn’t want me to use his tools. He doesn’t want them damaged, or lost when he goes searching for them on his tool bench. I understand that. We share the same tool rules. I make sure that I always return a tool to the place it was located after I am finished with it. He doesn’t straighten up the mess in my tool box, and I opened his tool box and found it was in order —- Navy order —- I think they were also in alphabetical order. I did not say anything, or he would know that I snooped into his tool boxes. I was looking for an allen wrench that I don’t have. He told me he had a set of allen wrenches, but then sat there watching TV and did not go and get one for me. I take it the allen wrenches are off limits. So, now I know what I want for Christmas —- Husky brand allen wrenches.
He just left for Home Depot —- after reading over my shoulder.
I wonder if he will wrap them. In this house we have borders and equality. We respect one another and that is so nice.
I initially skipped over this post for all the wrong reasons. Then I read the thread and my curiosity got piqued. I’m glad I watched it. THank you for sharing it.
I personally am not on the extreme end of the spectrum that requires that I “prove” to myself that I am a man, but I can understand that I am definitely not on the right end of the spectrum either.
In a way, I feel victimised by how I was raised, but at the same time, my parents were raised in a way that their parent, and then their parents, and so on going back a long, long way.
i feel like I am part of a generation that at least has made an effort to recognise the issue, but it will be the following generations that will make towards a more balanced adjustment of related awareness.
Change seems to occur more rapidly as we go forward. Hopefully, this long overdue change will occur faster than the length of time it took to entrench it in the first place.
Regarding the interruptive nature of your friend. I can relate. I am a very impatient person. Not bragging about that. The thing is, I catch on pretty quick. I really enjoy getting to where I am going and sometimes I try to influence the speed to arrive at the destination. I’m not trying to end the conversation, I just want to influence the speed of the progression. This is in dialogue mode only. If someone is telling a story to someone else; it is their story. However, one on one, if someone is talking so slow that I actually can predict the next word, i gotta pick up the pace. I have been called on this rude behaviour, but nine times out of ten, when asked where they were going with their conversation; I’m right…with guys, but not so often with women. It’s going to be tougher when we are all human first.
@spitfire3dc I bet you are skipping over my recent post for the wrong reason too. Just a hunch. It’s an empowering song for all, and I am bummed you are skipping it. Shoot, I am bummed everybody is skipping it.
i think i know what you are saying about being cut off, interrupted. i have people in my life who Need to say what they Need to say, without letting others finish their own thoughts out loud. they jump in, blurt, finish sentences for others, assume etc. but sometimes i wonder if it is disrespect or just a sort of self centered need to verbalize. i dont imply that we are selfish, i mean that they/we forget to function outside of our own bubbles. we forget to listen and give our listening to those speaking. to let them say it. even if we know the same things or could say it in a different way. its like they/we need to take over the conversation and impart how important we are too? or maybe it is something else.
in fact i was doing it at a work meeting yesterday and caught myself doing it. i realized i needed to be quiet until it was my turn to speak, and then i could say it, either to support what someone else had said, or to share my own thoughts. the thing is, usually i am the quiet one, but some things have been bubbling up, and when a superior/manager said some things i really wanted to confirm that i agreed, and also to assert myself about a few misunderstandings. but i did catch myself blurting, and i apologized and waited to say my part.
we learn to listen but we are afraid sometimes we wont get our say as well. that is why i think i was blurting at work. but lesson learned. interesting timing since i am now taking the time to watch this.
the part of the talk that struck me was when he speaks of men struggling to admit their struggles and ‘weaknesses’. when he said why couldnt they reach out to ask for help, why do they feel they have to do it all on their own, why dont they tell other men they are hurting? and i thought Hey this all sounds like Me. i do reach out, but not until it is dire. i do send out hints, as those of you on my facebook know, but i dont go straight forward into it, not publicly. i dont display vulnerability, i put up a strong front. until i lose my shit basically :D i am not trying to take away from the purpose of the talk, it just reached me that this stuff comes from some where and we can do something about it.
im really glad i took the time to watch this video. thank you.
We just need to remember that “man stuff” — and a lot of the “roles” that we as a society teach our children, are the things that enabled our society to survive and flourish to the point where we can now sit back in safety and comfort and say these things are now “not good”. It’s the old “If you have issues and hang-ups, blame it on the parents” game, but on steroids.
Something vital that has been lost, is the realistic observation that each of the sexes excel in certain skill-sets, are not so good on others; have points where they shine and weaknesses/pitfalls that they seem to fall into face-first with alarming regularity throughout time and regardless of culture.
Oh, but it’s so nice we’re throwing out all these scripts.
Maybe.
I suppose.
Everyone loves to be their own director, producer, writer AND star. It’s a regular me-me-fest!
The lessons of history include both things we should avoid repeating to fend off folly; and those we should honor because they’ve worked so well in bringing about the culture that can now entertain the kinds of radical social experiments that we THINK are going to “take us to the next level”.
Whether of intelligence and rationale or of emotion and passion . . . is in time’s hand.
It is good to change and grow.
But we are a species with a nefarious history of throwing out a lot of good things for the sake of the delusion we are growing and getting better.
@griz That’s assuming, though, that what worked well in the past works well today. E.g. the things that made one prosperous in the 1920’s don’t necessarily make you very rich today.
Today high paid skilled work involves delicate or creative manipulation of technology, and a brain’s a brain, doesn’t matter how masculine or feminine. But a successful electronic technician of today transported back into the 20’s wouldn’t be as successful as a robust laborer.
(Social) environments change. So must we.
It’s called the Red Queen hypothesis. You gotta run to catch up and stay in place, from an evolutionary perspective.
@georockstar09
I find it helps to remember that economics is a totally artificial and made-up concept.
I’m thinking more of the core processes of society and life itself that have worked throughout the eons before the concept of monetary economy or “feelings-over-reality” were even fathomed.
Human Social environments are the window dressing we try to put on the stark reality that is . . . reality. That’s not saying we shouldn’t pay heed to them.
Only that we should realize there is not a single thing that we have built up that nature has not in time put down and returned to dust.
Every human social experiment, is dated. Even great civilizations fall.
So I see them, and participate in them; but I also try to focus past them so we don’t get lost in the miasm of our own perceived self-ascendancy — gleefully making the brilliant mistakes “of progress” our grandchildren and great-grandchildren will condemn us as fools for.
@griz In my previous example, you could replace economy with reproductive fitness, if you want. That wasn’t my point. My point was that whatever made you reproductively fit in the 20’s won’t make you reproductively fit today, because other things are selected for in this different environment. Yes, we create the environment, yes, to an extent it is artificial, but so do AAALLL other species create their own environment in their own little niches. We are no different. So no presumption of “ascendancy”. Just each individual trying to get ahead in the environment we all created and continue to create in order to maximize reproductive fitness. Or “economy”.
I’m talking from an evolutionary, biological perspective, if this sounds confusing.
So to get back to what we were originally talking about – whatever skills made you fit in the recent-ish past won’t necessarily make you as fit today (nor would they make you fit in a hunter-gatherer society way, way back). Because we altered the environment. The only thing left to do is to catch up.
@georockstar09
I hold that there is a place for wondering about what we are leaving behind.
We have always been a species that was challenged by “the long term”; and we’ve tossed away many good and functional things just because we haven’t “felt” the short-term profit in them.
It’s a bit like someone lost in the desert with a heavy blanket. They are thankful for it that first frigid night. But as the heat of the day bakes them the say, “The reality has changed and what once service me is now just a burden”.
And with the reality of today seeming like an eternity they cast It off: not realizing that they will be missing it greatly in just a few hours.
22 responses to “I like it when men are advocates for equality between men and women.”
Yes, but I think they need to advocate more strongly such as eliminating the gender pay gap, and supporting females in more high power roles.
In any case, have you tried setting a boundary with your friend who cuts you off And answers for you? Doesn’t sound like much of a friend. I would tell him immediately, “it’s not okay for you to interrupt me or finish my thoughts.” If he can’t abide, I would find friends who can treat me with respect and is more aligned with my values.
@Scarlett Well, any friendship has its pros and cons, but either way, I have to work with him (in a sense he is, but not quite, a colleague). And the pros outweigh the cons. He is very much aligned with my values, he’s just a little rough around the edges.
I can’t just ditch a friendship because he subconsciously does something that offends me. I’ll work on him. Slowly.
@georockstar09 that sounds a lot more reasonable if he has lots of healthy habits and only that one unhealthy one.
@georockstar09 I have a cousin that does that to me and finishes my sentences. I go quiet, except to say, “I did not know that I was going to say that. But, please go on and tell me what I say next.” This stops her. I tell her that she can carry on both sides of our conversation while I just listen. I find it very interesting to here what I have to say. Then she tells me that I told her this story before. I let her tell stories that she has told before, then, at the end I say that it was fun hearing that again, I always enjoy her stories. I treat her the way that I would like her to treat me. (But, her skull must be made of steel and nothing penetrates.) She will not stop doing it. Some people won’t change.
@Scarlett
Differing pay for the same work is illegal in most jurisdictions.
If some employers aren’t getting this, they need to be stung by the law.
But what has become called the gender wage gap is to great degree the result of the very different ways men and women tend to work and pursue goals — and the fields they tend to favor. This has been shown in a scientific and dispassionate way by many studies. But we tend not to hear about them because they are not broadcast nearly as loudly as the studies that fan the flames of current trends and fads.
Equal opportunity to pursue your dreams is a good thing. Recognizing that men and women have different dreams and even if they are in ways similar they pursue them in different ways, seems to have been lost to the wind.
And while we’re celebrating “our dreams”, it’s good to keep in mind the often dirty, difficult, thankless “realities” that still need laborers in them to keep us fat, happy, sanitized, warm etc.
“Wage gap” is a good thing for consideration.
“Responsibility gap” is another good thing that almost entirely escapes consideration these days! “Equality” on some fronts but not others, isn’t true equality.
It’s the privilege to cherry-pick.
I will watch this later. I love TED Talks.
Here is a short TED Talk that show what happens when you pay two monkeys unequally.
@Gina I love that video! I remember seeing it before.
@Gina
This is actually very indicative of the kind of science-of-convenience that a lot of feminism relies upon. Yes, it proves very effectively that there is an innate sense of fairness, and that for equal result, equal reward is good.
But it stops there, without addressing all the wonderful variables at play not just in higher species but in the lower animals as well. Did you also notice that 1) there was no mention of the monkey’s genders and 2) it was a task so basic that there was only one way to do it! Passing a rock out a hole is a far cry from managing all the variables of huge corporation. Variables into which the innate differences between how men and women set goals and accomplish tasks are magnified.
An example that most would prefer I don’t bring up, is “equality” on road-crews. We are seeing more and more women out on road construction crews. And equal pay is a bone of contention with them.
But a sign-turner is just not the same caliber of work as someone laboring with a broom and shovel. There are an increasing number of women sign-turners out there. But as someone who almost daily sees road construction across North America I can count on the fingers of no hands the number of ladies I’ve seen doing the actual hard construction work.
So is difference in pay in this case, a “fairness” thing? Or a “privilege” thing?
This is just one of the more visible examples. Paying people differently for the same work just because of their sex is wrong. But is it the same work? Simplistic answers are rarely good ones.
Looking at just part of the picture, one can arrive at many conclusions that don’t represent the larger picture. That is what this so-called “landmark” study does.
And then emotion-charged agendas go all to town on celebrating it.
The exact same thing happened in the ’90’s when a rigged study by the AAUW “”proved”” that girls could be shown to be 50% more likely to report feeling disadvantaged and oppressed by the education system than boys . . . by stacking their study group with (iirc) 1750 girls and 250 boys to arrive at an “acceptable sample size” of 2000 participants.
And from this, politicians and policy-makers were lobbied to turn our public school system into something that actively disadvantages the boys.
Are you sure he’s cut cut cutting you off & not just getting burstingly excited that he’s found someone who thinks like he does & letting you know that he’s thinking what you are with an outburst?
@luftballooneyegouge He does it to me when I am talking to a third person. While I’m explaining something to the other person, he cuts in and explains for me, instead of just letting me do it.
@georockstar09
Sounds like a territorial workplace thing & I’m pretty dismissive of things like that. I just don’t care about status.
I would use it to my advantage. If it’s work & a part of your job, then this guy by finishing the explanation is actually taking some of your load if you plan for it. He’s predictably going to do this again, so let him. You start off and then make pauses and look his way, so he’ll jump in, then let him do the talking and fill in his blanks afterward. This way you have more control, & he’s doing work for you. If you’re worried he’s making you look bad, he’s probably already got a rep for his behavior, & you’ll look good for how you dealt with what annoys not only you. You’ll look cool & in control because you’ll be cool & in control & he’ll look like Dwight Schrute.
That was such a good talk by Justin Baldoni. When Immortal Pirate cuts my story off, I know it is because of his agenda to save time. “You told me this before.” He tells me the story punch line. Then we time-skip into what he says to answer that. I go into listening mode, as he finishes off the conversation. Yes, I do what I do with a verbal slap in the face. I go quiet. I wait to see if he cut me off to save time, or just to get my voice to stop filling the space. If it is the later, chances are that he won’t be hearing my voice for the rest of the day and that night.
I do my own cutting off, as well. The tools — his tools — in the garage workshop are off limits to me. Sooo, I buy my own tools. I heard him say to his daughter, “Barbara has more tools than I do!” Yeah and I make sure mine are of a brand — blue and gray from Lowes and black and red Husky brand from Home Depot. If the tool is blue and gray, stay away. If the tool you use is black and red, I will hit you on your head. Well, I don’t threaten to hit him in the head, but I will say, “Are those my pliers? They are Husky brand black and red.” When he finishes using them, I put them back in my red tool box. I understand why he doesn’t want me to use his tools. He doesn’t want them damaged, or lost when he goes searching for them on his tool bench. I understand that. We share the same tool rules. I make sure that I always return a tool to the place it was located after I am finished with it. He doesn’t straighten up the mess in my tool box, and I opened his tool box and found it was in order —- Navy order —- I think they were also in alphabetical order. I did not say anything, or he would know that I snooped into his tool boxes. I was looking for an allen wrench that I don’t have. He told me he had a set of allen wrenches, but then sat there watching TV and did not go and get one for me. I take it the allen wrenches are off limits. So, now I know what I want for Christmas —- Husky brand allen wrenches.
He just left for Home Depot —- after reading over my shoulder.
I wonder if he will wrap them. In this house we have borders and equality. We respect one another and that is so nice.
@ladybarbara I was just going to ask – “what if he read this on here?” and then – “he’s reading over my shoulder”
@ladybarbara HA!!! Immortal Pirate returned and wrapped a gift for me and put it under the tree. It is the size of a set of allen wrenches!!!
I initially skipped over this post for all the wrong reasons. Then I read the thread and my curiosity got piqued. I’m glad I watched it. THank you for sharing it.
I personally am not on the extreme end of the spectrum that requires that I “prove” to myself that I am a man, but I can understand that I am definitely not on the right end of the spectrum either.
In a way, I feel victimised by how I was raised, but at the same time, my parents were raised in a way that their parent, and then their parents, and so on going back a long, long way.
i feel like I am part of a generation that at least has made an effort to recognise the issue, but it will be the following generations that will make towards a more balanced adjustment of related awareness.
Change seems to occur more rapidly as we go forward. Hopefully, this long overdue change will occur faster than the length of time it took to entrench it in the first place.
Regarding the interruptive nature of your friend. I can relate. I am a very impatient person. Not bragging about that. The thing is, I catch on pretty quick. I really enjoy getting to where I am going and sometimes I try to influence the speed to arrive at the destination. I’m not trying to end the conversation, I just want to influence the speed of the progression. This is in dialogue mode only. If someone is telling a story to someone else; it is their story. However, one on one, if someone is talking so slow that I actually can predict the next word, i gotta pick up the pace. I have been called on this rude behaviour, but nine times out of ten, when asked where they were going with their conversation; I’m right…with guys, but not so often with women. It’s going to be tougher when we are all human first.
@spitfire3dc I bet you are skipping over my recent post for the wrong reason too. Just a hunch. It’s an empowering song for all, and I am bummed you are skipping it. Shoot, I am bummed everybody is skipping it.
i think i know what you are saying about being cut off, interrupted. i have people in my life who Need to say what they Need to say, without letting others finish their own thoughts out loud. they jump in, blurt, finish sentences for others, assume etc. but sometimes i wonder if it is disrespect or just a sort of self centered need to verbalize. i dont imply that we are selfish, i mean that they/we forget to function outside of our own bubbles. we forget to listen and give our listening to those speaking. to let them say it. even if we know the same things or could say it in a different way. its like they/we need to take over the conversation and impart how important we are too? or maybe it is something else.
in fact i was doing it at a work meeting yesterday and caught myself doing it. i realized i needed to be quiet until it was my turn to speak, and then i could say it, either to support what someone else had said, or to share my own thoughts. the thing is, usually i am the quiet one, but some things have been bubbling up, and when a superior/manager said some things i really wanted to confirm that i agreed, and also to assert myself about a few misunderstandings. but i did catch myself blurting, and i apologized and waited to say my part.
we learn to listen but we are afraid sometimes we wont get our say as well. that is why i think i was blurting at work. but lesson learned. interesting timing since i am now taking the time to watch this.
the part of the talk that struck me was when he speaks of men struggling to admit their struggles and ‘weaknesses’. when he said why couldnt they reach out to ask for help, why do they feel they have to do it all on their own, why dont they tell other men they are hurting? and i thought Hey this all sounds like Me. i do reach out, but not until it is dire. i do send out hints, as those of you on my facebook know, but i dont go straight forward into it, not publicly. i dont display vulnerability, i put up a strong front. until i lose my shit basically :D i am not trying to take away from the purpose of the talk, it just reached me that this stuff comes from some where and we can do something about it.
im really glad i took the time to watch this video. thank you.
We just need to remember that “man stuff” — and a lot of the “roles” that we as a society teach our children, are the things that enabled our society to survive and flourish to the point where we can now sit back in safety and comfort and say these things are now “not good”. It’s the old “If you have issues and hang-ups, blame it on the parents” game, but on steroids.
Something vital that has been lost, is the realistic observation that each of the sexes excel in certain skill-sets, are not so good on others; have points where they shine and weaknesses/pitfalls that they seem to fall into face-first with alarming regularity throughout time and regardless of culture.
Oh, but it’s so nice we’re throwing out all these scripts.
Maybe.
I suppose.
Everyone loves to be their own director, producer, writer AND star. It’s a regular me-me-fest!
The lessons of history include both things we should avoid repeating to fend off folly; and those we should honor because they’ve worked so well in bringing about the culture that can now entertain the kinds of radical social experiments that we THINK are going to “take us to the next level”.
Whether of intelligence and rationale or of emotion and passion . . . is in time’s hand.
It is good to change and grow.
But we are a species with a nefarious history of throwing out a lot of good things for the sake of the delusion we are growing and getting better.
@griz That’s assuming, though, that what worked well in the past works well today. E.g. the things that made one prosperous in the 1920’s don’t necessarily make you very rich today.
Today high paid skilled work involves delicate or creative manipulation of technology, and a brain’s a brain, doesn’t matter how masculine or feminine. But a successful electronic technician of today transported back into the 20’s wouldn’t be as successful as a robust laborer.
(Social) environments change. So must we.
It’s called the Red Queen hypothesis. You gotta run to catch up and stay in place, from an evolutionary perspective.
@georockstar09
I find it helps to remember that economics is a totally artificial and made-up concept.
I’m thinking more of the core processes of society and life itself that have worked throughout the eons before the concept of monetary economy or “feelings-over-reality” were even fathomed.
Human Social environments are the window dressing we try to put on the stark reality that is . . . reality. That’s not saying we shouldn’t pay heed to them.
Only that we should realize there is not a single thing that we have built up that nature has not in time put down and returned to dust.
Every human social experiment, is dated. Even great civilizations fall.
So I see them, and participate in them; but I also try to focus past them so we don’t get lost in the miasm of our own perceived self-ascendancy — gleefully making the brilliant mistakes “of progress” our grandchildren and great-grandchildren will condemn us as fools for.
@griz In my previous example, you could replace economy with reproductive fitness, if you want. That wasn’t my point. My point was that whatever made you reproductively fit in the 20’s won’t make you reproductively fit today, because other things are selected for in this different environment. Yes, we create the environment, yes, to an extent it is artificial, but so do AAALLL other species create their own environment in their own little niches. We are no different. So no presumption of “ascendancy”. Just each individual trying to get ahead in the environment we all created and continue to create in order to maximize reproductive fitness. Or “economy”.
I’m talking from an evolutionary, biological perspective, if this sounds confusing.
So to get back to what we were originally talking about – whatever skills made you fit in the recent-ish past won’t necessarily make you as fit today (nor would they make you fit in a hunter-gatherer society way, way back). Because we altered the environment. The only thing left to do is to catch up.
@georockstar09
I hold that there is a place for wondering about what we are leaving behind.
We have always been a species that was challenged by “the long term”; and we’ve tossed away many good and functional things just because we haven’t “felt” the short-term profit in them.
It’s a bit like someone lost in the desert with a heavy blanket. They are thankful for it that first frigid night. But as the heat of the day bakes them the say, “The reality has changed and what once service me is now just a burden”.
And with the reality of today seeming like an eternity they cast It off: not realizing that they will be missing it greatly in just a few hours.