Can be manipulated/ tricked, controlled by outside forces (i.e gravity), controlled by ourselves and our own mental state, have negative consequences if we engage in it/ utilize it, is it truly free will, or are we all bound by gossamer chains?
Free will is just implied in The Book. And that is only for those freed by the blood of The Son. Otherwise, your god and master manipulator is simply “your stomach”.
Life can be more then just shitting, fucking, eating, sleeping.
What Jesus offers is free will, and eternal life.
If you want to see how strong your stomach is over your mind try not eating for just one day.
@Jear77
That was your body/primitive mind doing that.
It’s a different thing entirely for you to consciously will not to eat.
And 24 hrs is for wusses. Try a traditional 4-day fast. But do it right. It’s an exercise of self discipline; and not a self-punishment or leveraging action to try to get God to render ponies or Franklins unto you!
@Jear77
The pain response is one of the most primitive and powerful hypothalamic subpersonalities within us. Yet our intellect can override it.
The maps of meaning we create inhabit much more accessible parts of the brain. Parts that are far easier to reprogram.
And we should actively want to reprogram a map of meeting that always has us running in circles and getting lost. Or one that is actively steering us away from any destination sufficient to bring some degree of meaning to the suffering we endure.
@griz actually not.
It’s not my map that needs adjustment; it’s god’s, if it exists. A map that singularly states that it is willing to waste literally all of creation if they can save one person… and equally has the audacity to say that he’s hurt by having to send people to hell. It’s like the joke “doctor, doctor, it hurts when i raise my hand like this.” Doctor “then don’t do that.” He had the opportunity to make reality any way he wanted, so he has no right to complain that people don’t follow his rules, seeing outside of physically restraining people, these things are possible. Don’t make it a choice if you have the power to do so, duh!
@griz no. It’s NOTHING else EXCEPT god if it exists. No one else’s map matters, according to you that you seek to be a slave in thought, word, deed to a concept that has no proof except by the individual. And all that proof crumbles to dust when examined carefully.
@Jear77
Have you never had someone who loved you enough to train you up in good ways, then set you free to play the game before you in the most meaningful way you chose to?
The most meaningful maps align to the existing game: otherwise one is just playing with themself for a couple decades and then is heard from no more.
And as we learn to play the smaller games of existence, we are invited to play larger games of even greater existence and meaning on larger and larger fields.
To pout that we are refusing to play because we cannot rewrite everything to our every whim and greater glory, just makes us Loki.
Loki only gets invited to other Trickster’s games as a pawn.
Oh, and a large number of people running the same experiment through time to similar outcome is a “clinical consensus”. It is acceptable scientific process, producing a statistically valid data set.
@griz Yet for all this clinical outcome… none have even 1/1000,000 the power to heal just by saying so, cast out demons, multiply fish and loaves, walk on water, fell an entire group of seasoned soldiers with a mere whisper. And these are the daily minimums of what should be expected able to be reported on by the news…
@Jear77
Yet again your current map of meaning has you tossing out small gains simply because they are not ultimate gains.
And something that can be said about a map aligned to the quest for spiritual truth and participation: the small gains just keep adding up until one day you are looking at a huge profit and wondering where it all came from! (Remembering that All That Glitters Is Not Gold!)
@griz not so… i am going by the bible’s exact words “greater things.” Nothing I have mentioned was greater than what christ himself did; i’m using the recordings of his own actions as a base, nothing more. That phrase should never have been used then… or this god of yours is both a liar and a fraud.
The person who looks for reasons why they can’t do something, will always find them!
Just like the person who is looking for oppressors, will always find/invent them.
And the person who turns down even the smallest measure of gain just because they can’t have it all is a fool.
We set our various “maps of meaning”. And then all of the primitive and subconscious subpersonalities within us set about making it so to our eyes our mind and our heart.
Even if we must sacrifice things like logic, reason, intelligence, free and critical thought . . .
(That’s why someone who has sold their soul to an ideology will say do or think almost anything just to keep that map intact)
We haven’t found the mind’s true limitations yet: though it has been proven we can subject our self to some pretty nasty limitations by choice (ie a poor map of meaning).
@griz your mind has equal limitations. Try controlling (with no physical effort) your vehicle with your mind. Try picking up an object with your mind.
Prove those first… and prove everyone is capable of such before you move onto spirituality
@Jear77
Let’s start with the much easier task of controlling our own chosen maps of motivation before moving outside of the arena where we already have absolute authority!
You do know that it is your chosen map of meaning that is causing you to reach so far afield for these rather interesting limitations and exceptions?
Work on controlling this; and then perhaps in time you will be ready to hear about exerting influence over things beyond the personal kingdom.
(It’s for a very good reason that we are not allowed to exercise authority beyond self, until we can exercise adequate authority over our own self! One doesn’t give the keys for the car to a child)
@griz even with such control you still can’t lift objects with your mind… nor as the bible states “add an inch to your stature” – if it can’t do the least of these things, it’s not a wise idea to change it to such an extent that one allows for the unprovable!
@Jear77
Baby steps Grasshopper! The boy who fancies he can tame the Leviathan should first see if he can get the little squid to jump through a few hoops.
Start with the little god you propose yourself to be.
Poke and prod him to see what makes him go pouty, vengeful, elusive or victim. Plus you have total authority and power to make changes and note the effects in real-time.
(But flapping your arms like a chicken will probably just cause those around you fly away to find their vid-recorders!)
@griz if need be! But this would be an extreme situation. And it wouldn’t be vengence, it would be preventative measures. I don’t play games with the safety of those i care about. And you shouldn’t either.
@immortal_pirate
What we’re seeing with young people nowadays is the compass used to draw their maps of meaning is attracted to short-term gratification.
Stagnation is seen as a reward because it’s comfortable predictable and no suffering in the short-term.
Growth is seen as a bad consequence because it involves change, work and maybe some sore muscles. (Body or brain!)
Have you seen another analogy of this in your travels or is it a new phenomenon?
@griz Short term gratification has always been a symptom endemic of/in society. Perhaps more so with the current generation, probably exaggerated by the rise of social media, the youth of today is the worst example of intellectual atrophy.
41 responses to “if free will…”
Free will is just implied in The Book. And that is only for those freed by the blood of The Son. Otherwise, your god and master manipulator is simply “your stomach”.
Life can be more then just shitting, fucking, eating, sleeping.
What Jesus offers is free will, and eternal life.
If you want to see how strong your stomach is over your mind try not eating for just one day.
@five2one i have… when sick
@Jear77
That was your body/primitive mind doing that.
It’s a different thing entirely for you to consciously will not to eat.
And 24 hrs is for wusses. Try a traditional 4-day fast. But do it right. It’s an exercise of self discipline; and not a self-punishment or leveraging action to try to get God to render ponies or Franklins unto you!
@griz i have strep throat. I was fully conscious and aware the entire time. I FORCED myself to drink so i wouldn’t dehydrate
@Jear77
The pain response is one of the most primitive and powerful hypothalamic subpersonalities within us. Yet our intellect can override it.
The maps of meaning we create inhabit much more accessible parts of the brain. Parts that are far easier to reprogram.
And we should actively want to reprogram a map of meeting that always has us running in circles and getting lost. Or one that is actively steering us away from any destination sufficient to bring some degree of meaning to the suffering we endure.
@griz why bother? I wasn’t happy, but most people can live a good 30 days without food. And it was an easily fixable malady.
@Jear77
You’ve already identified the “why bother”.
A malfunctioning map of meaning is a relatively easy malady to fix as well.
And if such a fix will help alleviate even the smallest portion of the overwhelming suffering you endure, why not do it?
@griz actually not.
It’s not my map that needs adjustment; it’s god’s, if it exists. A map that singularly states that it is willing to waste literally all of creation if they can save one person… and equally has the audacity to say that he’s hurt by having to send people to hell. It’s like the joke “doctor, doctor, it hurts when i raise my hand like this.” Doctor “then don’t do that.” He had the opportunity to make reality any way he wanted, so he has no right to complain that people don’t follow his rules, seeing outside of physically restraining people, these things are possible. Don’t make it a choice if you have the power to do so, duh!
@Jear77
So it’s not you, it’s just everyone else! All the way up to and including The Originator!
That’s just too self-precious for words!
@griz no. It’s NOTHING else EXCEPT god if it exists. No one else’s map matters, according to you that you seek to be a slave in thought, word, deed to a concept that has no proof except by the individual. And all that proof crumbles to dust when examined carefully.
@Jear77
Have you never had someone who loved you enough to train you up in good ways, then set you free to play the game before you in the most meaningful way you chose to?
The most meaningful maps align to the existing game: otherwise one is just playing with themself for a couple decades and then is heard from no more.
And as we learn to play the smaller games of existence, we are invited to play larger games of even greater existence and meaning on larger and larger fields.
To pout that we are refusing to play because we cannot rewrite everything to our every whim and greater glory, just makes us Loki.
Loki only gets invited to other Trickster’s games as a pawn.
Oh, and a large number of people running the same experiment through time to similar outcome is a “clinical consensus”. It is acceptable scientific process, producing a statistically valid data set.
@griz Yet for all this clinical outcome… none have even 1/1000,000 the power to heal just by saying so, cast out demons, multiply fish and loaves, walk on water, fell an entire group of seasoned soldiers with a mere whisper. And these are the daily minimums of what should be expected able to be reported on by the news…
@Jear77
Yet again your current map of meaning has you tossing out small gains simply because they are not ultimate gains.
And something that can be said about a map aligned to the quest for spiritual truth and participation: the small gains just keep adding up until one day you are looking at a huge profit and wondering where it all came from! (Remembering that All That Glitters Is Not Gold!)
@griz not so… i am going by the bible’s exact words “greater things.” Nothing I have mentioned was greater than what christ himself did; i’m using the recordings of his own actions as a base, nothing more. That phrase should never have been used then… or this god of yours is both a liar and a fraud.
@Jear77
But you conflict yourself in trying to religiously follow words that you have presupposed there is no meaning to!
It’s no wonder your map has you wandering in circles.
@griz so you admit that the bible is useless words, and of no truth!
We have to assume free will,…. WE HAVE NO CHOICE!!!!
The person who looks for reasons why they can’t do something, will always find them!
Just like the person who is looking for oppressors, will always find/invent them.
And the person who turns down even the smallest measure of gain just because they can’t have it all is a fool.
We set our various “maps of meaning”. And then all of the primitive and subconscious subpersonalities within us set about making it so to our eyes our mind and our heart.
Even if we must sacrifice things like logic, reason, intelligence, free and critical thought . . .
(That’s why someone who has sold their soul to an ideology will say do or think almost anything just to keep that map intact)
@griz no mater how much you flap your arms, you will never fly.
@Jear77
Your body has proven limitations.
We haven’t found the mind’s true limitations yet: though it has been proven we can subject our self to some pretty nasty limitations by choice (ie a poor map of meaning).
And spiritually??
@griz your mind has equal limitations. Try controlling (with no physical effort) your vehicle with your mind. Try picking up an object with your mind.
Prove those first… and prove everyone is capable of such before you move onto spirituality
@Jear77
Let’s start with the much easier task of controlling our own chosen maps of motivation before moving outside of the arena where we already have absolute authority!
You do know that it is your chosen map of meaning that is causing you to reach so far afield for these rather interesting limitations and exceptions?
Work on controlling this; and then perhaps in time you will be ready to hear about exerting influence over things beyond the personal kingdom.
(It’s for a very good reason that we are not allowed to exercise authority beyond self, until we can exercise adequate authority over our own self! One doesn’t give the keys for the car to a child)
@griz even with such control you still can’t lift objects with your mind… nor as the bible states “add an inch to your stature” – if it can’t do the least of these things, it’s not a wise idea to change it to such an extent that one allows for the unprovable!
@Jear77
Remember what I said about passing up small gains just because “you can’t have it all” right now!
If our chosen map of meaning keeps taking us to such a foolish place, it is worth considerable effort to change it.
@griz remember no matter the map, the unprovable will always remain so.
@Jear77
Those who think so suffer in obscurity.
It is those who push the boundaries who are remembered: because they Advance human understanding.
History doesn’t remember those who said heavier than air flight was unprovable or impossible.
@griz and how do you propse we stick god in a lab to poke and prod? I *really* want to hear this one!
@Jear77
Baby steps Grasshopper! The boy who fancies he can tame the Leviathan should first see if he can get the little squid to jump through a few hoops.
Start with the little god you propose yourself to be.
Poke and prod him to see what makes him go pouty, vengeful, elusive or victim. Plus you have total authority and power to make changes and note the effects in real-time.
(But flapping your arms like a chicken will probably just cause those around you fly away to find their vid-recorders!)
@griz nah. Remember my motto, all or nothing. All or nothing. All or nothing.
FREE WILL: Life is about choices, good choices have rewards and poor choices have consequences.
@immortal_pirate most muder cases (80%+) never get solved!
@Jear77
There are consequences that have nothing to do with human jurisprudence.
@griz not if a person does such with a clean conscious due to the wrongs the other person committed.
@Jear77
How exactly does wanting to play God over another person . . . clean the conscience???
The justice of vengeance??
(Because that always works out so well!)
@griz if need be! But this would be an extreme situation. And it wouldn’t be vengence, it would be preventative measures. I don’t play games with the safety of those i care about. And you shouldn’t either.
@Jear77
I’ve been able to keep friends and family safe for years without entertaining fantasies of exceptions extreme enough to justify vengeance.
Remember: our maps of meaning tend to find for us those things we attach the most meaning to.
@griz perhaps you don’t live in the real world then. And it’s not fanyasy. To someone like me, it would be a horrific thing.
@Jear77
Something happens when you know who you are and what you’re capable of.
You have less need to fantasize about who you might be or what you might be capable of.
That is why many Samurai Masters chose entertainment that was both peaceful and creative.
@immortal_pirate
What we’re seeing with young people nowadays is the compass used to draw their maps of meaning is attracted to short-term gratification.
Stagnation is seen as a reward because it’s comfortable predictable and no suffering in the short-term.
Growth is seen as a bad consequence because it involves change, work and maybe some sore muscles. (Body or brain!)
Have you seen another analogy of this in your travels or is it a new phenomenon?
@griz Short term gratification has always been a symptom endemic of/in society. Perhaps more so with the current generation, probably exaggerated by the rise of social media, the youth of today is the worst example of intellectual atrophy.
@immortal_pirate
Thoughts opinions and perhaps their mind itself is stored on the cloud.
It’s like there’s no assets housed in the person. Disconnect them and they’re lost.