Agreed!
But ideas have consequences.
And if they’re allowed to spread, can have wide reaching consequences that are problematic. Therefore the ideas need to be should be subject to criticism the moment they leave the person’s head. These criticisms can be the ability to be tested and examined through the scientific method, the constraints of logic, and/or the compared and contrasted against similar ideas — even completely OPPOSING ideas.
Any idea that cannot stand up to extensive scrutiny doesn’t pass multiple of these tests in the real world should be considered an unreliable idea that should be rejected.
Your new religion with “the scientific process” is duly noted!
Yes, our ability to measure/test one small aspect of something at a time has value. But if our rejecting something is based totally upon the proclamations of robed exalted ones, dwelling apart from us mostly in secrecy and showing up to deliver proclamations about what is OK for us to believe or not believe . . . we just have religion perpetrating itself wearing a slightly different set of clothes!
We really need to guard against the notion that we are “all-seeing/all-knowing” — whether personally or by proxy through our scientists. We retain the Human proclivity to be catastrophically wrong, even when we think we are absolutely right! Adding to the storehouse of knowledge doesn’t guard against this. Only wisdom does. And science does not speak in “wisdom”: only “knowledge”.
I say again, science has drastic and profound value — as do the discernments based on it. But it is a piss-poor “almighty” upon which to totally rely for one’s “rightness” or “savety”.
Consider too that beyond “accepting” and “rejecting”, there is biding one’s time knowing that throughout Human History things we have thought were axiomatic . . . have been routinely disproven!
The problem, as I said in one of my last responses to you is certain things are not testable, and fall outside the range of a coin toss and the placebo effect combined. Placebos are powerful things. If a placebo effect is able to make people think they’re getting between 15- 72% of the time… how do we know the results we see are the results to that which we are getting at? We can’t. And coincidence needs to be ABOVE that placebo mark AFTER the margin of error — which can be as high as 7%.
I don’t discount that these things may be a factor. There was an old episode of MASH where they ran out of morphine and were passing off sugar pills as a powerful new painkiller. So “the effect” was less a “delusion” than a powerful reality of their own bodies that was unlocked by faith.
You’ve noted that life can be hard; so why no avail ourselves of every asset we have. Or put negatively, why dismiss something just because “leaders in robes working in exalted places” haven’t given the official nod!?
And I’ve countered your “not testable” contention with the reality that science simply cannot “test” a lot of things relating to the Human condition. Things like friendship, fellowship, creativity etc. It can measure physiological pre-cursors and chemical responses after-the-fact. But what a cold, dead way to look at life!!
Whereas one can absolutely “test” friendship, relationship, fellowship, creativity etc through personal experience with them. AND we have the power to color those experiences positively (unto going deeper into them) and negatively (unto closing up and fleeing from them).
Science has ZERO mandate here, save perhaps to trying to reduce the Human Experience to a series of numbers!
So those ruled by skepticism might “feel saved” in exploring them????
The more we know about the human mind the more we are able to unlock things. What if, in a future reality, we ARE able to test EVERY aspect of the human experience?
i can see a future where we all wear something akin to portable MRIs. These devices can view the brainwaves of people as they go through their daily lives and are able to create a generalized pattern or profile that shows EXACTLY how the mind responds to various stimuli. These stimuli include friendship, how the brain creates – and how different types of creativity occurs, how it feels being in a group, what types of patterns exist for those who are involved in religious experiences, and what happens at the moment of death. What happens when ALL those things you say that that are unable to be ever touched by science, are? What will your next argument be? You’ll have none.
And when (if!) we reach that point, all such discussions will be moot!
But I would invite you to recognize the “future hope/pie-in-the-sky” thinking of religious process present here. “Some day” Human scientific understanding MIGHT approach this level (if we don’t destroy ourselves first!).
But effective spiritual process benefits us in the here-and-now — and this becomes “the clinical evidence” that we’ve connected with something that Human understanding has yet to assign a mathematical equation to.
And as a side-note, a very spiritual Shaman I once knew had an amazing ability to discern what was going on in a person’s heart/mind and allegedly so did Jesus. And I’ve had a rather spooky personal experience with what para-science calls “remote sensing” where I was able to know something about a new acquaintance’s loved one that even they did not know. (I’d never met the person, and they were a 1000 miles away at the time).
What if we can already do something akin to what we hope technology MIGHT some day be able to do? As you’ve commented, life can be hard. Why not avail ourselves of everything that might be available to us here-and-now?
Ever hear of Clark’s laws? His 3rd states that “Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” A riff of that is “Sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology. I would say that both these idea applies to the divine as well. With that in mind, look at the miracles that happen in scripture. Food duplication. Healing of incurable diseases. Raising of the dead. Changes in personality (demonic possession). It’s many times far too convenient when we don’t get what we want to simply chalk it up to it not being god’s will, rather than there simply not being a god. And it’s also too convenient to pray for something that is well within the realm of possibility to say that god had a hand in it!
And just because you experienced something interesting, not ordinary for you doesn’t necessarily make it extraordinary. It could be VERY explainable in scientific terms, but just not now. What if what you experienced was simply a matter of a new ability that man is developing and you’re simply among the few who are lucky enough to get it… OR man has but simply doesn’t realize it has but doesn’t know how to access it?
Or sufficiently advanced knowledge/wisdom — perhaps even “spiritual experience”? In your response is the presumption that what is “advanced”, needs to be “external”. There is a profound link to discussions on-group in the past where it’s been asked if we’ve advanced as a species and people say “Yes” and then cite technology. But while this is “of us”, it isn’t “us”. As an organism, we haven’t advanced all that much — perhaps because people mistakenly believe that ALL advancement HAS to be remote from us! So we’re not developing our own latent abilities . . . just because science (our current understanding) asserts that their existence is “sacrilege against doctrine”.
I think you have a good insight there with “changes in personality”; with a possible strong link to what we currently call mental/psychological illness.
The problem with the assumption of “no god” is the very large and ego-charged presumption that we are powerful enough discerners and evaluators to make this determination. Even as just a “place-keeper”, the concept of God helps keep us from overdosing on our ego. (And then if there’s more to God, it’s a magnified bonus).
I daily pray for a lot of things that are within the realm of possibility; if perhaps not probability. And fledgling science recognizes concepts like “chaos theory” where probabilities become altered when perspectives become altered. Belief in God is . . . an “alterer of perspective”. Particularly, one where ego isn’t as likely to run away with us and where one is more open to things like convergences that might not be as “random” as ego-blinded perspective might think! We don’t think to exercise the “muscle” we’re not aware we have!!
And you’ve hit on a very key point here — that things MAY SOME DAY be explainable in scientific terms. But what if they are explainable in spiritual terms — and we can access/exercise them right now, here, today? You’ve already commented on just how hard life can be. Doesn’t it make sense to make use of every advantage and not wait for “religious leaders in robes” to tell us it’s OK to think or believe something??
What if we had latent abilities that science has not yet developed equations for and has not given the official nod on (ie, they are “sacrilege against science”), that spiritual exercise can unlock? Allegedly there were these prophets and a messiah and perhaps even engineers (Aztec, Incan) running around performing “feats” 1000’s of years ago that today are “beyond us” . . . simply because they were not yet so full of ego and their “own knowledge” that they could “””allow””” for things beyond “current understanding”?
Keep in mind we’re still struggling to understand how the Incas could track planetary movement so far into the future or build walls of multi-ton blocks with just simple hand-tools that fit together so well without mortar that one cannot slide a credit card between them. We have our theories. But nobody has duplicated these feats “of themselves” with nearly the same degree of success.
A focus on “external advancement” of just our technology, has robbed us of a lot of “ancient knowledge and wisdom” — because we’re told “not to touch it” until religio-science leaders tell us it’s OK.
There’s one HUGE thing you’re missing out in my comments on Clark’s law and the riff of such. The underlying commentary that I didn’t think I needed to spell out (but obviously I do) is that god could simply be some sort of an extra-dimensional being or alien or species of aliens that has immense power, nothing more. What if this is true? This is a BIG problem for your belief systems! If you read the bible from the perspective that god is nothing but an alien or species of them, you get some interesting insights. One alien wants a lot more bloodshed, another wants less (or none) and thus allows Israel to be taken captive because they don’t lend their power. Some say incredibly wise things (don’t kill) but others says equally insane things (spread blood of a bird to cure your skin ailments and kill those who wear blended fabrics!)
I have no doubt that God is a very alien entity, from our perspective. He’s alleged to be “pure Spirit” (pure energy??). How alien is that?!
And do you remember it wasn’t that long ago, as children, we were convinced that adults were a totally alien species compared to children! Immature perspective produced this. So how “immature” is a being convinced it is mostly physical, set against an entity that is pure Spirit?
You’re presuming a problem from a perspective of a man-made religion . . . that just isn’t there if one is willing to read the Bible as God’s word and not worship it as part of the alleged Godhead!
And “commandments” for the sake of teaching a very infant tribe of wanderers about spiritual things present no crisis either . . . so long as one is not trying to worship the book [or collection thereof] as God-manifest! (“no mixed crops or fibers in garments” was a lesson in purity — not a ticket to hell for everyone currently wearing poly-cotton underwear!)
The key disconnect seems to be . . . that you were taught to worship the collection of physical writings, as God [or some physical substitute thereof]. If you can drop that, many of these disconnects will cease to be.
(sighs) I guess I have to spell out the rest of the point. What if the alien that you worship is manipulating mankind for his pleasure with nothing but technology we don’t understand? And as a further point, what if this being is not as benevolent, wise, or as powerful as we think because we’re simply too afraid to give up our faith by peering at the man behind the curtain that Toto has revealed to us by looking at the writings through the lens of science, who would likely explain that in his science, his power is nothing but smoke and mirrors?
What if that alien’s pleasure is to groom us to some day join with it and be in control of all this “technology”? (But again, you’re presuming that “power” HAS to be manufactured and external).
The “lens of science” is just “the lens of us” — and “us” in an immature, imperfect, and conflicted state where we let the fear of “what might be” . . . keep us from participating as fully as the moment allows.
And hasn’t this been your problem all along?
What if this “alien” isn’t benevolent? What if it is?
One of us patently will never know, and this because of fear and paranoia based on religious mis-information.
I dont know if i agree with this statement. i think we grow from our experiences, and the thing is, the bad times are going to come. We don’t have to seek them out.
This disconnect with reality is one of the many reasons that I gave up my faith. The Christian mindset cannot understand that no matter what, no matter their prayers, that no matter how faithful they are to the cause of christ, that bad things will ALWAYS happen. People will lose their jobs. People will get addicted to substances and behaviors that are unhealthy. People will have things stolen. Sex will be misused against people. People will get progressively sicker as they age. People will die. It’s hand-waving, insulting of intelligence and dishonest to say “oh, that’s simply the results of sin/ living in a sinful world.” Why bother creating a universe, knowing this is to happen?
And saying prayer works… how do they know what’s happening is of god? Many times things could be explained by science if it has all the facts.
“And saying prayer works… how do they know what’s happening is of god? Many times things could be explained by science if it has all the facts.”
But what if we don’t have to wait until science has an equation perfected?
What if prayer done in a Scriptural way and allowing it is “of God” or His kingdom, is a kind of training exercise for us to learn how to use latent spiritual abilities that science will remain utterly blind to for the foreseeable future?
You’ve already commented on how hard life can be. Does it make sense to deny ourselves any possible advantage just because the “leaders in robes” haven’t yet given the official nod on them?
The idea is that a god good as described should not need to be asked to stop some of the things in the world. And there are some (MANY in fact!) things that the person who is a victim in these things have absolutely no culpability in. Otherwise it’s like saying a victim of violence, theft, the misuse of sex, or some sort of awful disease was asking for it. Such things should never need asking for. And if these things are not of his kingdom, they simply should not be!
Many things I thought were “bad” at the time and might have wished stopped . . . have produced most of my greatest lessons and advances.
Part of spiritual process is that it helps us escape from the hubris that tells us that “we know best”. Remember this is allegedly what caused the first sin in Lucifer, and the alleged fall of Humanity in the Garden.
And before we cry “boo hoo” over this and call the parents “bad” . . . . remember that a physical child learns how to walk and then run . . . by falling a lot!
Listen, stop now, I know part of your story you’ve shared. You can’t tell me that the pain you’ve experienced through the hands of those who hurt you the most has helped you the most. That’s bullshit. I could have said it more painfully to you, but did not because not only is it inappropriate, but the pain you experienced cuts too close to home for me as well. Far better to avoid said pain altogether by stopping it before it happens, striking the perpetrator dead OR not to allow it to happen to begin with, so it’s never passed onto the next generation than to cause those you claim to love to experience it to begin with.
I would not stop a process that has benefited me so; and benefited so many others as well.
Yes, there has been pain and suffering — a kind which was not fully realized at the time but which festered and grew in me. But overcoming it is one of the most positively amazing experiences of my life! It is “rare wisdom” — the kind of which few would volunteer to go to the only places it might be found.
But every time I can use it to help another, more and more of the past pain is not just “justified”, it disappears!
And better, it makes increasing sense. (And we just cannot say this, in the flesh or in science!) I am honored that I was allowed or perhaps even “chosen” to walk such a difficult path — AND was given the spiritual support to triumph over it.
If it was allowed to happen with no support to overcome it, then God would be cruel. As it is, He is loving as a parent or teacher is who will watch a child struggle with something without rushing in to do their homework or “fix it” for them . . . knowing that their overcoming it will pay off great dividends for them over time.
(And that “fixing it” will just make them more dependent and unable to stand on their own)
I continue to sing the praises of God because His process is the one that allowed this to happen. The best “science” could offer me was ineffectual counseling in how to become a better perpetual victim to my feelings and the “remote control” of someone long dead!
You don’t get it, do you? It’s inappropriate for the hurt to exist in the first place. If it did not there would be no NEED – in fact if it was stopped from the beginning of time there would NEVER BE a need to pass along the wisdom, comfort from it happening. And god could have “nipped it in the butt” from the get go. He did not. You have the ability and you don’t? That type of a being not only deserves no praise… it deserves open defiance.
In the current reality and “economy”, hurt sparks either a) growth or b) bitterness . . . with us being given the choice.
Are we TRULY holding ourselves wise enough to say this is inappropriate OR to insist that “the solution” is to negate all process since choice first resulted in “paradise lost”?
Given a choice, most children would stagnate. That is why we work to stimulate and encourage growth. Are you saying that this too is “inappropriate”?
You are just bitter at the “reality” that say you want science to reveal more of to you; and wanting to blame God (or the parents?) for it.
Open defiance is simply an echo of the primary, and then the secondary sin that landed us in this reality you are bitter about and wanting to blame God for.
that’s the exactly point. There are some hurts that are inexcusable, so wrong, so problematic, so unforgivable that they should simply be disallowed from existence, even to the point of allowing stagnation, because if they did not exist in the first place, the stagnation couldn’t exist because the hurt did not.
But there are no hurts that we cannot both heal from and turn into positive growth by the power of the Spirit. This is how Christ’s ultimate and “finished” victory over evil is ours every day.
So what hurt is it you are proposing that is too problematic, too unforgiveable for God?
The ones that would cause him the necessity of sending his son to the cross, the ultimate act of child abuse, as proposed by the bible! i.e. the ENTIRE WORLD — which, as I said before, he had (and still HAS) the option of changing. But he refuses, he leaves it up to us. And so I say to the day of my death “no. Never will i serve you” to god.
You’ve already decided “You shall become as unto God”; and beyond unto the judge of all existence/reality.
And are just looking for the final justification, which will never come.
It is alleged a far more powerful being than you walked this same path: God’s reality, God’s rules; or his reality, his rules.
It allegedly resulted in what you hate.
Remember that spiritually, whatever god we worship tends to “procreate” a version of themselves in our heart.
And let’s not lose sight of the fact that already your perceptions are in question: because you seem to think that pandering to and spoiling a child is the most loving way to raise them.
No, I know I am flawed. I also know that there are those who are better – stronger, faster, smarter, wiser, more able than I. But that does not mean there is a god. It means precisely what I stated, that they are somehow better than I, nothing more, nothing less.
I know justification comes by faith, biblically speaking. But that is nonsense! And the other (opposite) view that god chooses (or has chosen) from eternity past is equally problematic.
Keep in mind that I didn’t ask for existence. I didn’t want it. NO ONE in fact ASKED for reality, asked to be born. therefore any consequences based on a reality FORCED on those who never requested for existence, is sick and twisted! It is akin to spiritual rape.
Everyone has their own set of gifts that they excel at. Playing games of better or worse is still self-righteousness at work. (The “rightness” of self is measured by self against others: but how can imerfection measure imperfection without leaving to insanity?)
Actually justification by faith is axiomatic. We just switch up what our faith is in. You are currently trying to justify yourself through faith in your emotions masquerading as faith in science. Science is a good and emotions are an inexorable part of us, but total faith them NEVER exceeds juste faith in ourselves. We like to think there are safeguards in there to protect us from ourselves. But history is full of its failures.
At least with faith that goes beyond us we have a better chance of escaping our selves.
There is a lot of victimhood thinking in the proclamation that I never asked to be born. There are some belief systems that are very blatant stating that we had a say in our own birth.
Or remove the spirituality of it and look just at science. You were the one sperm of millions that had sufficient drive to make it this far.
Of course you chose to be born! Even if you don’t remember it.
Anguishing that one has potential and possibilities is just so . . . fucked up.
I was, and probably will, still, post on one conclusion I have on this.
That aside, I am often having to read behind the lines for things said and done. Yesterday’s demonstration at a funeral by two different pastors, very good example.
This does not mean I find, ultimately, all beliefs equal, far from it. But, most, if not all beliefs, including the strongest, I have learned to measure confidence very carefully. This is not something I consider I am able to be perfect in, anymore then I can do jumping backflips. Or more, accurately, in areas where I do excel, that is from a lot of effort, experience, and areas where there is found ways to have consistent, gaming, training “feedback”. In no such areas have I ever truly achieved the superhuman, per se. In fact, one thing I learned from extensive MA research, is the best hyperfocus on one or two areas. And even they continually put in many hours, everyday, some in their very old age, because while results may downtrend, there is always room for improvement.
Further, new methodologies, or gifts even, can always come up. Even with areas that are millenia old. This is especially true from my mindset, where I view the infinite world as managing this finite world.
In 258000+ years, I have learned to accept more than any of you can imagine, not that I agreed with much of it, on the contrary, much of history is filled with people, news, and ideas that I very much disagreed with. Where and when I could effect change on events, I did so with some reservation. During other events, I jumped in with exuberant passion to bring to fruition what I hoped would better my situation…all with varying results.
34 responses to “If we only “accept” people, news, or ideas that we already agree with . . .”
Agreed!
But ideas have consequences.
And if they’re allowed to spread, can have wide reaching consequences that are problematic. Therefore the ideas need to be should be subject to criticism the moment they leave the person’s head. These criticisms can be the ability to be tested and examined through the scientific method, the constraints of logic, and/or the compared and contrasted against similar ideas — even completely OPPOSING ideas.
Any idea that cannot stand up to extensive scrutiny doesn’t pass multiple of these tests in the real world should be considered an unreliable idea that should be rejected.
Your new religion with “the scientific process” is duly noted!
Yes, our ability to measure/test one small aspect of something at a time has value. But if our rejecting something is based totally upon the proclamations of robed exalted ones, dwelling apart from us mostly in secrecy and showing up to deliver proclamations about what is OK for us to believe or not believe . . . we just have religion perpetrating itself wearing a slightly different set of clothes!
We really need to guard against the notion that we are “all-seeing/all-knowing” — whether personally or by proxy through our scientists. We retain the Human proclivity to be catastrophically wrong, even when we think we are absolutely right! Adding to the storehouse of knowledge doesn’t guard against this. Only wisdom does. And science does not speak in “wisdom”: only “knowledge”.
I say again, science has drastic and profound value — as do the discernments based on it. But it is a piss-poor “almighty” upon which to totally rely for one’s “rightness” or “savety”.
Consider too that beyond “accepting” and “rejecting”, there is biding one’s time knowing that throughout Human History things we have thought were axiomatic . . . have been routinely disproven!
The problem, as I said in one of my last responses to you is certain things are not testable, and fall outside the range of a coin toss and the placebo effect combined. Placebos are powerful things. If a placebo effect is able to make people think they’re getting between 15- 72% of the time… how do we know the results we see are the results to that which we are getting at? We can’t. And coincidence needs to be ABOVE that placebo mark AFTER the margin of error — which can be as high as 7%.
I don’t discount that these things may be a factor. There was an old episode of MASH where they ran out of morphine and were passing off sugar pills as a powerful new painkiller. So “the effect” was less a “delusion” than a powerful reality of their own bodies that was unlocked by faith.
You’ve noted that life can be hard; so why no avail ourselves of every asset we have. Or put negatively, why dismiss something just because “leaders in robes working in exalted places” haven’t given the official nod!?
And I’ve countered your “not testable” contention with the reality that science simply cannot “test” a lot of things relating to the Human condition. Things like friendship, fellowship, creativity etc. It can measure physiological pre-cursors and chemical responses after-the-fact. But what a cold, dead way to look at life!!
Whereas one can absolutely “test” friendship, relationship, fellowship, creativity etc through personal experience with them. AND we have the power to color those experiences positively (unto going deeper into them) and negatively (unto closing up and fleeing from them).
Science has ZERO mandate here, save perhaps to trying to reduce the Human Experience to a series of numbers!
So those ruled by skepticism might “feel saved” in exploring them????
The more we know about the human mind the more we are able to unlock things. What if, in a future reality, we ARE able to test EVERY aspect of the human experience?
i can see a future where we all wear something akin to portable MRIs. These devices can view the brainwaves of people as they go through their daily lives and are able to create a generalized pattern or profile that shows EXACTLY how the mind responds to various stimuli. These stimuli include friendship, how the brain creates – and how different types of creativity occurs, how it feels being in a group, what types of patterns exist for those who are involved in religious experiences, and what happens at the moment of death. What happens when ALL those things you say that that are unable to be ever touched by science, are? What will your next argument be? You’ll have none.
Then we would be “almighty”!
And when (if!) we reach that point, all such discussions will be moot!
But I would invite you to recognize the “future hope/pie-in-the-sky” thinking of religious process present here. “Some day” Human scientific understanding MIGHT approach this level (if we don’t destroy ourselves first!).
But effective spiritual process benefits us in the here-and-now — and this becomes “the clinical evidence” that we’ve connected with something that Human understanding has yet to assign a mathematical equation to.
And as a side-note, a very spiritual Shaman I once knew had an amazing ability to discern what was going on in a person’s heart/mind and allegedly so did Jesus. And I’ve had a rather spooky personal experience with what para-science calls “remote sensing” where I was able to know something about a new acquaintance’s loved one that even they did not know. (I’d never met the person, and they were a 1000 miles away at the time).
What if we can already do something akin to what we hope technology MIGHT some day be able to do? As you’ve commented, life can be hard. Why not avail ourselves of everything that might be available to us here-and-now?
Ever hear of Clark’s laws? His 3rd states that “Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” A riff of that is “Sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology. I would say that both these idea applies to the divine as well. With that in mind, look at the miracles that happen in scripture. Food duplication. Healing of incurable diseases. Raising of the dead. Changes in personality (demonic possession). It’s many times far too convenient when we don’t get what we want to simply chalk it up to it not being god’s will, rather than there simply not being a god. And it’s also too convenient to pray for something that is well within the realm of possibility to say that god had a hand in it!
And just because you experienced something interesting, not ordinary for you doesn’t necessarily make it extraordinary. It could be VERY explainable in scientific terms, but just not now. What if what you experienced was simply a matter of a new ability that man is developing and you’re simply among the few who are lucky enough to get it… OR man has but simply doesn’t realize it has but doesn’t know how to access it?
Or sufficiently advanced knowledge/wisdom — perhaps even “spiritual experience”? In your response is the presumption that what is “advanced”, needs to be “external”. There is a profound link to discussions on-group in the past where it’s been asked if we’ve advanced as a species and people say “Yes” and then cite technology. But while this is “of us”, it isn’t “us”. As an organism, we haven’t advanced all that much — perhaps because people mistakenly believe that ALL advancement HAS to be remote from us! So we’re not developing our own latent abilities . . . just because science (our current understanding) asserts that their existence is “sacrilege against doctrine”.
I think you have a good insight there with “changes in personality”; with a possible strong link to what we currently call mental/psychological illness.
The problem with the assumption of “no god” is the very large and ego-charged presumption that we are powerful enough discerners and evaluators to make this determination. Even as just a “place-keeper”, the concept of God helps keep us from overdosing on our ego. (And then if there’s more to God, it’s a magnified bonus).
I daily pray for a lot of things that are within the realm of possibility; if perhaps not probability. And fledgling science recognizes concepts like “chaos theory” where probabilities become altered when perspectives become altered. Belief in God is . . . an “alterer of perspective”. Particularly, one where ego isn’t as likely to run away with us and where one is more open to things like convergences that might not be as “random” as ego-blinded perspective might think! We don’t think to exercise the “muscle” we’re not aware we have!!
And you’ve hit on a very key point here — that things MAY SOME DAY be explainable in scientific terms. But what if they are explainable in spiritual terms — and we can access/exercise them right now, here, today? You’ve already commented on just how hard life can be. Doesn’t it make sense to make use of every advantage and not wait for “religious leaders in robes” to tell us it’s OK to think or believe something??
What if we had latent abilities that science has not yet developed equations for and has not given the official nod on (ie, they are “sacrilege against science”), that spiritual exercise can unlock? Allegedly there were these prophets and a messiah and perhaps even engineers (Aztec, Incan) running around performing “feats” 1000’s of years ago that today are “beyond us” . . . simply because they were not yet so full of ego and their “own knowledge” that they could “””allow””” for things beyond “current understanding”?
Keep in mind we’re still struggling to understand how the Incas could track planetary movement so far into the future or build walls of multi-ton blocks with just simple hand-tools that fit together so well without mortar that one cannot slide a credit card between them. We have our theories. But nobody has duplicated these feats “of themselves” with nearly the same degree of success.
A focus on “external advancement” of just our technology, has robbed us of a lot of “ancient knowledge and wisdom” — because we’re told “not to touch it” until religio-science leaders tell us it’s OK.
There’s one HUGE thing you’re missing out in my comments on Clark’s law and the riff of such. The underlying commentary that I didn’t think I needed to spell out (but obviously I do) is that god could simply be some sort of an extra-dimensional being or alien or species of aliens that has immense power, nothing more. What if this is true? This is a BIG problem for your belief systems! If you read the bible from the perspective that god is nothing but an alien or species of them, you get some interesting insights. One alien wants a lot more bloodshed, another wants less (or none) and thus allows Israel to be taken captive because they don’t lend their power. Some say incredibly wise things (don’t kill) but others says equally insane things (spread blood of a bird to cure your skin ailments and kill those who wear blended fabrics!)
I have no doubt that God is a very alien entity, from our perspective. He’s alleged to be “pure Spirit” (pure energy??). How alien is that?!
And do you remember it wasn’t that long ago, as children, we were convinced that adults were a totally alien species compared to children! Immature perspective produced this. So how “immature” is a being convinced it is mostly physical, set against an entity that is pure Spirit?
You’re presuming a problem from a perspective of a man-made religion . . . that just isn’t there if one is willing to read the Bible as God’s word and not worship it as part of the alleged Godhead!
And “commandments” for the sake of teaching a very infant tribe of wanderers about spiritual things present no crisis either . . . so long as one is not trying to worship the book [or collection thereof] as God-manifest! (“no mixed crops or fibers in garments” was a lesson in purity — not a ticket to hell for everyone currently wearing poly-cotton underwear!)
The key disconnect seems to be . . . that you were taught to worship the collection of physical writings, as God [or some physical substitute thereof]. If you can drop that, many of these disconnects will cease to be.
(sighs) I guess I have to spell out the rest of the point. What if the alien that you worship is manipulating mankind for his pleasure with nothing but technology we don’t understand? And as a further point, what if this being is not as benevolent, wise, or as powerful as we think because we’re simply too afraid to give up our faith by peering at the man behind the curtain that Toto has revealed to us by looking at the writings through the lens of science, who would likely explain that in his science, his power is nothing but smoke and mirrors?
What if that alien’s pleasure is to groom us to some day join with it and be in control of all this “technology”? (But again, you’re presuming that “power” HAS to be manufactured and external).
The “lens of science” is just “the lens of us” — and “us” in an immature, imperfect, and conflicted state where we let the fear of “what might be” . . . keep us from participating as fully as the moment allows.
And hasn’t this been your problem all along?
What if this “alien” isn’t benevolent? What if it is?
One of us patently will never know, and this because of fear and paranoia based on religious mis-information.
Look at the classic Twilight Zone episode “To Serve Man.”
I dont know if i agree with this statement. i think we grow from our experiences, and the thing is, the bad times are going to come. We don’t have to seek them out.
This disconnect with reality is one of the many reasons that I gave up my faith. The Christian mindset cannot understand that no matter what, no matter their prayers, that no matter how faithful they are to the cause of christ, that bad things will ALWAYS happen. People will lose their jobs. People will get addicted to substances and behaviors that are unhealthy. People will have things stolen. Sex will be misused against people. People will get progressively sicker as they age. People will die. It’s hand-waving, insulting of intelligence and dishonest to say “oh, that’s simply the results of sin/ living in a sinful world.” Why bother creating a universe, knowing this is to happen?
And saying prayer works… how do they know what’s happening is of god? Many times things could be explained by science if it has all the facts.
“And saying prayer works… how do they know what’s happening is of god? Many times things could be explained by science if it has all the facts.”
But what if we don’t have to wait until science has an equation perfected?
What if prayer done in a Scriptural way and allowing it is “of God” or His kingdom, is a kind of training exercise for us to learn how to use latent spiritual abilities that science will remain utterly blind to for the foreseeable future?
You’ve already commented on how hard life can be. Does it make sense to deny ourselves any possible advantage just because the “leaders in robes” haven’t yet given the official nod on them?
The idea is that a god good as described should not need to be asked to stop some of the things in the world. And there are some (MANY in fact!) things that the person who is a victim in these things have absolutely no culpability in. Otherwise it’s like saying a victim of violence, theft, the misuse of sex, or some sort of awful disease was asking for it. Such things should never need asking for. And if these things are not of his kingdom, they simply should not be!
Many things I thought were “bad” at the time and might have wished stopped . . . have produced most of my greatest lessons and advances.
Part of spiritual process is that it helps us escape from the hubris that tells us that “we know best”. Remember this is allegedly what caused the first sin in Lucifer, and the alleged fall of Humanity in the Garden.
And before we cry “boo hoo” over this and call the parents “bad” . . . . remember that a physical child learns how to walk and then run . . . by falling a lot!
Listen, stop now, I know part of your story you’ve shared. You can’t tell me that the pain you’ve experienced through the hands of those who hurt you the most has helped you the most. That’s bullshit. I could have said it more painfully to you, but did not because not only is it inappropriate, but the pain you experienced cuts too close to home for me as well. Far better to avoid said pain altogether by stopping it before it happens, striking the perpetrator dead OR not to allow it to happen to begin with, so it’s never passed onto the next generation than to cause those you claim to love to experience it to begin with.
I would not stop a process that has benefited me so; and benefited so many others as well.
Yes, there has been pain and suffering — a kind which was not fully realized at the time but which festered and grew in me. But overcoming it is one of the most positively amazing experiences of my life! It is “rare wisdom” — the kind of which few would volunteer to go to the only places it might be found.
But every time I can use it to help another, more and more of the past pain is not just “justified”, it disappears!
And better, it makes increasing sense. (And we just cannot say this, in the flesh or in science!) I am honored that I was allowed or perhaps even “chosen” to walk such a difficult path — AND was given the spiritual support to triumph over it.
If it was allowed to happen with no support to overcome it, then God would be cruel. As it is, He is loving as a parent or teacher is who will watch a child struggle with something without rushing in to do their homework or “fix it” for them . . . knowing that their overcoming it will pay off great dividends for them over time.
(And that “fixing it” will just make them more dependent and unable to stand on their own)
I continue to sing the praises of God because His process is the one that allowed this to happen. The best “science” could offer me was ineffectual counseling in how to become a better perpetual victim to my feelings and the “remote control” of someone long dead!
You don’t get it, do you? It’s inappropriate for the hurt to exist in the first place. If it did not there would be no NEED – in fact if it was stopped from the beginning of time there would NEVER BE a need to pass along the wisdom, comfort from it happening. And god could have “nipped it in the butt” from the get go. He did not. You have the ability and you don’t? That type of a being not only deserves no praise… it deserves open defiance.
In the current reality and “economy”, hurt sparks either a) growth or b) bitterness . . . with us being given the choice.
Are we TRULY holding ourselves wise enough to say this is inappropriate OR to insist that “the solution” is to negate all process since choice first resulted in “paradise lost”?
Given a choice, most children would stagnate. That is why we work to stimulate and encourage growth. Are you saying that this too is “inappropriate”?
You are just bitter at the “reality” that say you want science to reveal more of to you; and wanting to blame God (or the parents?) for it.
Open defiance is simply an echo of the primary, and then the secondary sin that landed us in this reality you are bitter about and wanting to blame God for.
The hamster-wheel spins faster and faster.
that’s the exactly point. There are some hurts that are inexcusable, so wrong, so problematic, so unforgivable that they should simply be disallowed from existence, even to the point of allowing stagnation, because if they did not exist in the first place, the stagnation couldn’t exist because the hurt did not.
But there are no hurts that we cannot both heal from and turn into positive growth by the power of the Spirit. This is how Christ’s ultimate and “finished” victory over evil is ours every day.
So what hurt is it you are proposing that is too problematic, too unforgiveable for God?
The ones that would cause him the necessity of sending his son to the cross, the ultimate act of child abuse, as proposed by the bible! i.e. the ENTIRE WORLD — which, as I said before, he had (and still HAS) the option of changing. But he refuses, he leaves it up to us. And so I say to the day of my death “no. Never will i serve you” to god.
You’ve already decided “You shall become as unto God”; and beyond unto the judge of all existence/reality.
And are just looking for the final justification, which will never come.
It is alleged a far more powerful being than you walked this same path: God’s reality, God’s rules; or his reality, his rules.
It allegedly resulted in what you hate.
Remember that spiritually, whatever god we worship tends to “procreate” a version of themselves in our heart.
And let’s not lose sight of the fact that already your perceptions are in question: because you seem to think that pandering to and spoiling a child is the most loving way to raise them.
No, I know I am flawed. I also know that there are those who are better – stronger, faster, smarter, wiser, more able than I. But that does not mean there is a god. It means precisely what I stated, that they are somehow better than I, nothing more, nothing less.
I know justification comes by faith, biblically speaking. But that is nonsense! And the other (opposite) view that god chooses (or has chosen) from eternity past is equally problematic.
Keep in mind that I didn’t ask for existence. I didn’t want it. NO ONE in fact ASKED for reality, asked to be born. therefore any consequences based on a reality FORCED on those who never requested for existence, is sick and twisted! It is akin to spiritual rape.
Everyone has their own set of gifts that they excel at. Playing games of better or worse is still self-righteousness at work. (The “rightness” of self is measured by self against others: but how can imerfection measure imperfection without leaving to insanity?)
Actually justification by faith is axiomatic. We just switch up what our faith is in. You are currently trying to justify yourself through faith in your emotions masquerading as faith in science. Science is a good and emotions are an inexorable part of us, but total faith them NEVER exceeds juste faith in ourselves. We like to think there are safeguards in there to protect us from ourselves. But history is full of its failures.
At least with faith that goes beyond us we have a better chance of escaping our selves.
There is a lot of victimhood thinking in the proclamation that I never asked to be born. There are some belief systems that are very blatant stating that we had a say in our own birth.
Or remove the spirituality of it and look just at science. You were the one sperm of millions that had sufficient drive to make it this far.
Of course you chose to be born! Even if you don’t remember it.
Anguishing that one has potential and possibilities is just so . . . fucked up.
Ah, but is the “bad time” that we learn something of huge positive value from for self and perhaps even society . . . still a “bad” thing?
I was, and probably will, still, post on one conclusion I have on this.
That aside, I am often having to read behind the lines for things said and done. Yesterday’s demonstration at a funeral by two different pastors, very good example.
This does not mean I find, ultimately, all beliefs equal, far from it. But, most, if not all beliefs, including the strongest, I have learned to measure confidence very carefully. This is not something I consider I am able to be perfect in, anymore then I can do jumping backflips. Or more, accurately, in areas where I do excel, that is from a lot of effort, experience, and areas where there is found ways to have consistent, gaming, training “feedback”. In no such areas have I ever truly achieved the superhuman, per se. In fact, one thing I learned from extensive MA research, is the best hyperfocus on one or two areas. And even they continually put in many hours, everyday, some in their very old age, because while results may downtrend, there is always room for improvement.
Further, new methodologies, or gifts even, can always come up. Even with areas that are millenia old. This is especially true from my mindset, where I view the infinite world as managing this finite world.
The measure of any belief is in it’s fruit.
When you speak of “new methodologies, or gifts even” are you speaking of gifts and methodologies of the Spirit??
In 258000+ years, I have learned to accept more than any of you can imagine, not that I agreed with much of it, on the contrary, much of history is filled with people, news, and ideas that I very much disagreed with. Where and when I could effect change on events, I did so with some reservation. During other events, I jumped in with exuberant passion to bring to fruition what I hoped would better my situation…all with varying results.
i agree
but sometimes i just cant stomach too much immersion in what i dont agree with :D
but you are right, how else to learn?
And as we grow our stomachs grow stronger.
( stronger and often bigger!)