@Fletch Accuracy in terms of what’s important for what you’re measuring. For instance if you’re comparing dough, you might comment on the springiness (bounce-back) the smell of the yeast, how much the dough rose and so on.
@Fletch 2 people can look at the exact same thing and come to different conclusions. One, with a trained eye might see something one with an untrained eye would not, or in fact, can not.
@Fletch
There’s a perverse notion in the post-modern consciousness that “control” HAS to mean total subjugation/eradication.
That was a very nice camel with an umbrella hat you gifted me. It was perhaps even more grand and comedic than the one you envisioned (mine had a Canadian flag on his umbrella-hat!)
But self-control means I can entertain it for a while and then set it aside when I wish. Or bring it back again if I wish. Or even use him to make a point.
Many things in life can cause us to “react” unto being controlled. But only the person who is learning the path of self-control, can choose to “pro-act” to things.
@griz but since I made you think of that camel (Canadian flag does add a nice touch), you had no control of self once you went from not thinking about said camel to it entering your mind.
@Fletch
I had every choice to not open your “gift”; so the camel that produced the dung was voluntarily accepted. And because it came from someone I value, I will continue to assess it value (even if just the value of coming from someone I value! But I must share that your camel is actually getting a lot of beneficial mileage of late!).
But if you were not such a person, self-control would let me “excise” the image gifted to my inner kingdom.
The idea is, that greater self-control (personal strength) means greater ability and freedom to not lock oneself up behind barriers, walls, blocks and fences.
I can “let life happen” with a lower threshold of fear and trepidation. And if the occasional flag-festooned dromedary wanders in, I can have some fun with it before sending it on its way . . . or keep it around for any number of beneficial purposes!
No. I have to think back and compare with what I have learned over the many years I have been alive. There is a standard and I compare to the standard. At this part of my life, it doesn’t matter if I put my own ideas into what I am examining. It is only a comparison or measurement that only I will use in the bubble I choose to live in.
@ladybarbara
Does nobody else include in their examinations and assessments, a little sub-routine of “what might I be trying to read into this for myself — for my own greater glory”?
I would be very surprised if Baha’i doesn’t have at least a small and obscure chapter on this somewhere. (Most belief-systems do . . . but few like to push it or draw attention to it because the notion of self-control is . . . unfashionable!)
@griz I am not apt to first consider what the Baha’i view is. However, I guess I would run the inspected idea through the scope and see if it is honest, trustworthy, not hurting others, is it charitable, will it add to the world?
When in a Baha’i grouping and ideas are tossed around for the group itself. A member adds an idea into the group —- and then lets go of it. It is no longer an idea that belongs to that individual. It is now on the table as an idea that belongs to the group. When there is a final decision, it is the decision of the group, as a whole. So, even if the idea the group decided on has come from my own contribution, in the end, I would not claim any credit for it. I walk away from the meeting knowing that it was the group’s decision. I don’t own it anymore. Not everything in my life is a product of Baha’i group-thinking. Most of my thinking is on my own. Most of the introspection and inspections of life ideas are my own and the Baha’i group-think might not agree with the ideas, and then I tend to think, “Go fuck yourselves” and go my own way anyway. example : I was told by the group that I should attend the Saturday Devotional. I had a “Pirate Party” I wanted to go to with Immortal Pirate. I went to the Pirate Party.
A filter of “us” is so very easily distorted by our ego — screaming that “WE” (or our feelings) are the only subjective “truth” (ie lie) that counts.
Many spiritual paths I’ve studied or tried start with exercises to teach one to control ego. They include things like ascetism and acts of “dying to self”.
Some of the better police colleges still teach officers and investigators to be “dispassionate observers” of people and details. But without constant “exercise” it can be very easy to lapse back into old habits of relying too much on just feelings and urges (which includes prejudice, bias, games of energy procurement/maintenance).
Many people consider themselves accurate observers and assessors of the input they receive. But the sad reality is that if one doesn’t specifically and regularly exercise control of ego and feelings, you will be more “the mastered” than “the master”.
And BTW, this kind of “self control” doesn’t mean trying to shut off or over-ride the feelings and urges of ego. It means being aware of it’s process in you; recognizing sooner and sooner when it’s becoming the master and you the servant.
AND being brave enough to back-track (apologize if necessary) and start an assessment again from scratch when you recognize the one who should be the master, has become mastered.
@griz but at day’s end, even if unmastered by the feelings, every study requires us to recognize them. If we cannot it is impossible to be objective about any situation. And these filters we use to try to remain objective may be something such that we cannot see ourselves living without, so our viewpoints may be more skewed than we realize.
@Jear77
As I said to @halfbreed, we have this perverse notion in our post-modern consciousness that “control” HAS to mean either total subjugation or eradication.
(You yourself fall into this Lie in your constant efforts to disparage God!)
It does not. We can recognize — and even celebrate the lower aspects of our nature. There are times they need to rise to the fore, to “come out and play” for the sake of our own health. Self-control to me is about “integration” of all the things within me as a stepping stone to integration with all of the things “beyond just me”.
Being controlled by ego and the lower aspects of our nature almost always fall into paths of dis-integration — personal AND collective.
A “filter” by its nature, “colors” things. An ideal objective assessment is one where filters are removed.
If what I “cannot live without” is Truth, I am REQUIRED to let all things be what they will be. If I try to color them, what I apparently cannot live without, is “the Lie”.
@griz but what if at day’s end, what you’re experiencing is nothing morethan Stockholm syndrome and simply don’t recognize it as such because you’re the one experiencing it? People who have depression, alcoholism, drug abuse, gambling problems, etc. never realize it… and just because this comforting ideology is useful to some extent doesn’t at all maje it true.
@Jear77
It’s perhaps like asking what if the pain relief I experience is just placebo effect?
At day’s end I’m still free from pain and able to move onwards and upwards with full mobility.
All of these things you mention (including Stockholm’s) are things WE create in ourselves, of ourselves, that cloud and limit unto a dysfunction that is evident in time (to others first then if we’re open, to ourselves). They are things that dis-empower and entrap a person in a prison of their own mind.
If the faith OF God truly is in the same ilk, I have employed it for decades unto great empowerment and freedom; and fewer and fewer traps and prisons set for myself in my own mind.
But it differs because the “starting point” is recognizing and identifying the folly of such “constructs of self trying to save self”.
It is un-categorically and un-reservedly the best “experiment-in-life” I have ever undertaken!
And I have undertaken QUITE a few . . . including the few (the one?) that you are now on.
‘If I can’t control it, it is less than meaningless to me and will continue to be so, unto death’.
This ties into another of your comments where a hypothetical person would rather die than seek available medical help which essentially, is placing oneself in the hands of something they cannot fully understand or control.
@griz In science they can tell you what you have if you have enough time for tests most of the time. And even if that fails there’s holistic medicine(s). I was sick… but had a gut level feeling (double entendre intended since I had food poisoning) what I Had. They were saying they could do tests but it’d take 3 days, in the interim they could prescribe medicine (if it was ineffective, I’d have had to go to the hospital). In fact they WANTED me to go to the hospital emergency room. I told them (in essence) they were out of their minds! I was hydrated (that’s ONE thing, unlike other people I make SURE that I am! People NEVER drink enough water)
There IS no scientific test… and even if it were god’s not going to grant someone his entire power… so it’s useless to talk about it
@Jear77
Again we’re back to your chronic block that if you cannot control God-beyond-self, you count it as useless.
Even as you continually pursue variants on the god-of-your-own-understanding . . . which in many cases is NOT under your control.
Be wary of the stance of scientism you have adopted; for it is folly from the get-go. (The religious belief that “natural science”s inability to render a Supernatural God for you to control, is somehow proof that a Supernatural God is either non-existent, or unimportant. A belief held religiously . . . even unto death).
@griz I can control certain things. Other things it’s obvious I can’t. I think i know the difference. You want no control. Be careful that you don’t end up overseas on some mission trip in the stewpot of cannibals because you were told to go there.
@Jear77
The problem with the various addictions-to-self is how easily they can have us either under or over estimating our own capabilities. (A rather annoying unbroken thread throughout human history).
I’ve been called to a perhaps far more dangerous foreign missions trip. To the U.S. of America, where the savages have been known to shoot someone for just looking at them funny! Some apparently value materialistic possessions over human life.
@griz meh. a gunshot can be treated. In this day and age in America it’s not that big of a deal, though depending *where* one is shot and *with what.* Most gunshot wounds are never fatal.
In a 3rd world country, you would have to worry about not only language barriers, but people who literally want to eat you. This is not hyperbole.
@Jear77
It could prove interesting to contrast the number of people in all third world Nations liked for nourishment . . . Against the people in just the US killed for reasons of greed or fear.
maybe, if i am able to focus on method and not make it personal, but wow the more i think about it the less likely
like recipes or sewing projects, even then i am putting my own personal ways into things.
i dont think it is impossible but i bet it is improbable
36 responses to “Interpretation: can you examine anything without inserting your own ideas as to what’s going on?”
not possible –
and what exactly is ‘accurate’? there can be more than 1 interpretation of accuracy
@Fletch Accuracy in terms of what’s important for what you’re measuring. For instance if you’re comparing dough, you might comment on the springiness (bounce-back) the smell of the yeast, how much the dough rose and so on.
@Jear77
not sure how that relates to the question “can you examine anything without inserting your own ideas as to what’s going on?”
@Fletch 2 people can look at the exact same thing and come to different conclusions. One, with a trained eye might see something one with an untrained eye would not, or in fact, can not.
@Jear77
you’re getting too complicated.
I see 1 cup of water. Am I using a trained eye or an untrained eye? What do you see?
@Fletch it depends. At a basic level i can say it is H2^O.
@Jear77 so goes the answer to just about every question here – ‘it depends’
@Fletch
‘It depends’ . . . almost entirely upon one’s ability to control the aspects of ego and urge that wants to make everything subject to us.
@Fletch
Is this an admission that control of self is not possible?
@griz in certain situations, no it is not.
I tell you “don’t think of a camel with an umbrella hat”, what do you think of?
just try telling yourself not to think of that camel and it’s red, flowery hat…….
@Fletch dr seuss anyone?
@Fletch
There’s a perverse notion in the post-modern consciousness that “control” HAS to mean total subjugation/eradication.
That was a very nice camel with an umbrella hat you gifted me. It was perhaps even more grand and comedic than the one you envisioned (mine had a Canadian flag on his umbrella-hat!)
But self-control means I can entertain it for a while and then set it aside when I wish. Or bring it back again if I wish. Or even use him to make a point.
Many things in life can cause us to “react” unto being controlled. But only the person who is learning the path of self-control, can choose to “pro-act” to things.
@griz but since I made you think of that camel (Canadian flag does add a nice touch), you had no control of self once you went from not thinking about said camel to it entering your mind.
@Fletch
My control-of-self . . . doesn’t have to be . . . despotic. Or surrounded by fearful fences and prison walls to keep me “safe”!
My control-of-self has grown strong enough that I can let a lot of things in for consideration without fear of “losing control”.
So I am freer than most, to “open the gifts” people might bring me and even to let them run around a bit to reveal what their nature dictates.
(BTW, there is a package of camel-dung en-route to you; surface mail; postage due! Keep a weathered eye out for it!)
@griz
so involuntarily letting info into your mind is a form of self control? or lack of?
and thanks for the package. time to stock up!
@Fletch
I had every choice to not open your “gift”; so the camel that produced the dung was voluntarily accepted. And because it came from someone I value, I will continue to assess it value (even if just the value of coming from someone I value! But I must share that your camel is actually getting a lot of beneficial mileage of late!).
But if you were not such a person, self-control would let me “excise” the image gifted to my inner kingdom.
The idea is, that greater self-control (personal strength) means greater ability and freedom to not lock oneself up behind barriers, walls, blocks and fences.
I can “let life happen” with a lower threshold of fear and trepidation. And if the occasional flag-festooned dromedary wanders in, I can have some fun with it before sending it on its way . . . or keep it around for any number of beneficial purposes!
Subjective…
@immortal_pirate
Is self-control not possible?
No. I have to think back and compare with what I have learned over the many years I have been alive. There is a standard and I compare to the standard. At this part of my life, it doesn’t matter if I put my own ideas into what I am examining. It is only a comparison or measurement that only I will use in the bubble I choose to live in.
@ladybarbara
Does nobody else include in their examinations and assessments, a little sub-routine of “what might I be trying to read into this for myself — for my own greater glory”?
I would be very surprised if Baha’i doesn’t have at least a small and obscure chapter on this somewhere. (Most belief-systems do . . . but few like to push it or draw attention to it because the notion of self-control is . . . unfashionable!)
@griz I am not apt to first consider what the Baha’i view is. However, I guess I would run the inspected idea through the scope and see if it is honest, trustworthy, not hurting others, is it charitable, will it add to the world?
When in a Baha’i grouping and ideas are tossed around for the group itself. A member adds an idea into the group —- and then lets go of it. It is no longer an idea that belongs to that individual. It is now on the table as an idea that belongs to the group. When there is a final decision, it is the decision of the group, as a whole. So, even if the idea the group decided on has come from my own contribution, in the end, I would not claim any credit for it. I walk away from the meeting knowing that it was the group’s decision. I don’t own it anymore. Not everything in my life is a product of Baha’i group-thinking. Most of my thinking is on my own. Most of the introspection and inspections of life ideas are my own and the Baha’i group-think might not agree with the ideas, and then I tend to think, “Go fuck yourselves” and go my own way anyway. example : I was told by the group that I should attend the Saturday Devotional. I had a “Pirate Party” I wanted to go to with Immortal Pirate. I went to the Pirate Party.
A filter of “us” is so very easily distorted by our ego — screaming that “WE” (or our feelings) are the only subjective “truth” (ie lie) that counts.
Many spiritual paths I’ve studied or tried start with exercises to teach one to control ego. They include things like ascetism and acts of “dying to self”.
Some of the better police colleges still teach officers and investigators to be “dispassionate observers” of people and details. But without constant “exercise” it can be very easy to lapse back into old habits of relying too much on just feelings and urges (which includes prejudice, bias, games of energy procurement/maintenance).
Many people consider themselves accurate observers and assessors of the input they receive. But the sad reality is that if one doesn’t specifically and regularly exercise control of ego and feelings, you will be more “the mastered” than “the master”.
And BTW, this kind of “self control” doesn’t mean trying to shut off or over-ride the feelings and urges of ego. It means being aware of it’s process in you; recognizing sooner and sooner when it’s becoming the master and you the servant.
AND being brave enough to back-track (apologize if necessary) and start an assessment again from scratch when you recognize the one who should be the master, has become mastered.
@griz but at day’s end, even if unmastered by the feelings, every study requires us to recognize them. If we cannot it is impossible to be objective about any situation. And these filters we use to try to remain objective may be something such that we cannot see ourselves living without, so our viewpoints may be more skewed than we realize.
@Jear77
As I said to @halfbreed, we have this perverse notion in our post-modern consciousness that “control” HAS to mean either total subjugation or eradication.
(You yourself fall into this Lie in your constant efforts to disparage God!)
It does not. We can recognize — and even celebrate the lower aspects of our nature. There are times they need to rise to the fore, to “come out and play” for the sake of our own health. Self-control to me is about “integration” of all the things within me as a stepping stone to integration with all of the things “beyond just me”.
Being controlled by ego and the lower aspects of our nature almost always fall into paths of dis-integration — personal AND collective.
A “filter” by its nature, “colors” things. An ideal objective assessment is one where filters are removed.
If what I “cannot live without” is Truth, I am REQUIRED to let all things be what they will be. If I try to color them, what I apparently cannot live without, is “the Lie”.
@griz but what if at day’s end, what you’re experiencing is nothing morethan Stockholm syndrome and simply don’t recognize it as such because you’re the one experiencing it? People who have depression, alcoholism, drug abuse, gambling problems, etc. never realize it… and just because this comforting ideology is useful to some extent doesn’t at all maje it true.
@Jear77
It’s perhaps like asking what if the pain relief I experience is just placebo effect?
At day’s end I’m still free from pain and able to move onwards and upwards with full mobility.
All of these things you mention (including Stockholm’s) are things WE create in ourselves, of ourselves, that cloud and limit unto a dysfunction that is evident in time (to others first then if we’re open, to ourselves). They are things that dis-empower and entrap a person in a prison of their own mind.
If the faith OF God truly is in the same ilk, I have employed it for decades unto great empowerment and freedom; and fewer and fewer traps and prisons set for myself in my own mind.
But it differs because the “starting point” is recognizing and identifying the folly of such “constructs of self trying to save self”.
It is un-categorically and un-reservedly the best “experiment-in-life” I have ever undertaken!
And I have undertaken QUITE a few . . . including the few (the one?) that you are now on.
And one that you have NEVER been on.
@griz If I can’t prove it and use its power in full as I see fit, It is less than meaningless to me and will continue to be until death.
@Jear77
A slight amendment unto Truth:
‘If I can’t control it, it is less than meaningless to me and will continue to be so, unto death’.
This ties into another of your comments where a hypothetical person would rather die than seek available medical help which essentially, is placing oneself in the hands of something they cannot fully understand or control.
@griz In science they can tell you what you have if you have enough time for tests most of the time. And even if that fails there’s holistic medicine(s). I was sick… but had a gut level feeling (double entendre intended since I had food poisoning) what I Had. They were saying they could do tests but it’d take 3 days, in the interim they could prescribe medicine (if it was ineffective, I’d have had to go to the hospital). In fact they WANTED me to go to the hospital emergency room. I told them (in essence) they were out of their minds! I was hydrated (that’s ONE thing, unlike other people I make SURE that I am! People NEVER drink enough water)
There IS no scientific test… and even if it were god’s not going to grant someone his entire power… so it’s useless to talk about it
@Jear77
Again we’re back to your chronic block that if you cannot control God-beyond-self, you count it as useless.
Even as you continually pursue variants on the god-of-your-own-understanding . . . which in many cases is NOT under your control.
Be wary of the stance of scientism you have adopted; for it is folly from the get-go. (The religious belief that “natural science”s inability to render a Supernatural God for you to control, is somehow proof that a Supernatural God is either non-existent, or unimportant. A belief held religiously . . . even unto death).
@griz I can control certain things. Other things it’s obvious I can’t. I think i know the difference. You want no control. Be careful that you don’t end up overseas on some mission trip in the stewpot of cannibals because you were told to go there.
@Jear77
The problem with the various addictions-to-self is how easily they can have us either under or over estimating our own capabilities. (A rather annoying unbroken thread throughout human history).
I’ve been called to a perhaps far more dangerous foreign missions trip. To the U.S. of America, where the savages have been known to shoot someone for just looking at them funny! Some apparently value materialistic possessions over human life.
But it’s where I am supposed to be right now.
@griz meh. a gunshot can be treated. In this day and age in America it’s not that big of a deal, though depending *where* one is shot and *with what.* Most gunshot wounds are never fatal.
In a 3rd world country, you would have to worry about not only language barriers, but people who literally want to eat you. This is not hyperbole.
@Jear77
It could prove interesting to contrast the number of people in all third world Nations liked for nourishment . . . Against the people in just the US killed for reasons of greed or fear.
It can be a very savage mission-field for sure.
@griz Well you’re not converting one person, that’s for sure!
maybe, if i am able to focus on method and not make it personal, but wow the more i think about it the less likely
like recipes or sewing projects, even then i am putting my own personal ways into things.
i dont think it is impossible but i bet it is improbable