No. As an immortal, I have no real power over anyone, nor do I oppress anyone either, but being an immortal gives me an advantage over mortals…
Does an inequality exist? Yeah, I guess it does.
@immortal_pirate
Wherever value exists, there will be inequality.
Because no matter the value, humanity will manifest differing levels of competency in achieving that value.
Even in marxism where “the value” was equity of outcome, gross inequality was both the vehicle employed unto procurement of said value . . . and also the net outcome!
So inequality is a “constant” of this existence. But there are ways to both live with it, and balance it out. And they seem to look something like exercising responsibility for and competency with oneself.
And then extend this into the societal arena.
Right now, it is, though Satan has been expelled from Heaven, and the reign of God and Christ has begun, massive institutions which must be taken down, remain.
Those institutions were born by Satan, through the Catholic Church.
@griz ‘Actually hierarchies of competence predate Roman Catholicism by a few billion years!’
I do not believe in evolution, though I have studied it extensively.
I believe ‘God formed the universe, laid the foundation for the earth, and forms the spirit of people in their hearts’ (Zechariah).
I believe ‘we live and move and have our being within God’ (Acts, Apostle Paul).
Not relevant, a discussion on evolution, but I do believe that “competency” is a matter of being rich in spirit or poor in spirit. Right now, the ‘somethings of this world’ are ruling it, and they do so, brutally.
The nothings will outshine them, and are already starting to, but this world is not ours, even if we do already spiritually reign with God and Christ. As Babylon, the beast, and false prophet, all are still standing, as is the ‘statue of Daniel’, which people worship.
Everybody Knows, Sigrid (Original, by the late, great Leonard Cohen):
@five2one
Even if we want to shorten that time frame to the few thousand years of Biblical literalists, we still see hierarchies of competence far far far predating Roman Catholicism.
They are an “archetype” — a narrative instantiated deeply within everyone. Even “primitive” cultures that had no exposure to the history recorded in the Bible operated on hierarchies of competence. (And when they degraded from not enough attention, became hierarchies of power and tyranny).
@griz Well, it can probably seem like a billion years, depends on one’s perspective.
“They are an “archetype” — a narrative instantiated deeply within everyone. Even “primitive” cultures that had no exposure to the history recorded in the Bible operated on hierarchies of competence. (And when they degraded from not enough attention, became hierarchies of power and tyranny).”
Sounds reasonable. I wasn’t there, but like to imagine how these little towns, with dusty roads and thatched rooves, with little children playing ball… slowly became these strange empires.
Man seems to have been left to his own devices, then came Abraham.
He could see past the veil. I wonder if anyone else could, before that.
@five2one
I think the likelihood was high that others could. Abram was just the one that got recorded (perhaps the one who took it the farthest?) so we could be aware of it.
I knew of a Shaman, not literate, having very limited exposure to the Bible or its concepts, who’s story seems to be of one who walked and even communed in real-time with “The Creator” (aka, The Great Spirit) and expected his initiates to learn to “pierce the veil” between “the dream” (what we call waking reality) and “reality”.
There’s the idea that God has not been hiding from those who sought in Spirit and in Truth (seek and ye shall find). It’s perhaps just that not many have?
@griz I have no idea how many have been led by God, but do see that as being chosen. I do not believe anyone comes to God on their own. I do believe, however, in a few being chosen, but that to lead others to God. And, I believe, in the end, that everyone will find immortality in our new bodies.
I do not believe you have to go to a certain church to be saved, and can be saved without even having heard of the Bible. A lot of primitive cultures strike me as ripe for salvation. Enoch did not have the Bible, Abraham did not have the Bible.
I am sure the angels have been busy.
God wanted to save even corrupt and tiny Jonah’s Nineveh, of course He wants to save India, China, everyone, everywhere.
We have 7 billion some odd people on the planet, and are in the business of saving, not destroying.
The plan is to work a mass salvation from here on out. Part of that plan has been to allow global corruption through ‘Babylon’ and the ‘statue of Nebuchadnezzar’. That gives fulcrum for the coming of the Kingdom of God.
I do view that as dreadful, and a lot of work ahead. But, we will be empowered to do so.
‘Finally, after God has put all enemies under Jesus’ feet, he will turn over the Kingdom to God’.
That is ‘why Jesus’ and the testimony. To bring the entire world to God.
That existence will be in new bodies. Glorified bodies, transfigured.
@five2one
While “chosen” is in a real way correct, I think proper humility has to be in concert with it so the negative aspects of pride/ego remain in check. I’ve had first-hand experience with just how easily this can get out of balance.
One could just as easily, “not have been chosen”.
And even in this, consider Abram. God’s Spirit “chose” to “choose” him. But could Abram have chosen not to participate positively? The impression is that Judas made such a choice, despite his obvious zeal for what HE thought things should play out as.
But this exercise of free moral agency didn’t derail God’s sovereign plan. It was allowed to become a vital, seamless part of it.
@griz “And even in this, consider Abram. God’s Spirit “chose” to “choose” him. But could Abram have chosen not to participate positively? The impression is that Judas made such a choice, despite his obvious zeal for what HE thought things should play out as.”
The line comes from ‘many are called, but few are chosen’ and ‘no one comes to me, but that the Father draws them’.
Judas was who he was, because he was made that way. He did make his own choices, but based on lack of knowledge. So did the Romans and Jews who crucified Jesus.
‘We move and breathe and have our being in God’, which Jesus intimated, when he explained that God made sure even the small animals have their food.
Everyone is made by God. Great and small, the ‘nothings of this world’ and the ‘somethings of this world’. This is not so clearly seen, yet, as the time has not quite yet come where God lifts up the nothings to shame the somethings. ‘Showing God, is God of all’.
God did not choose Abram out of chance, but he made him. He designed him for a life of faith. He watched and controlled his life. Abram had free choice, but greater knowledge, so he made the right choices.
He told Moses he ‘had mercy on whom he has mercy on’, but that was clearly to preserve his humility. Moses was created with his life mission in design, from the very moment of his birth.
“While “chosen” is in a real way correct, I think proper humility has to be in concert with it so the negative aspects of pride/ego remain in check. I’ve had first-hand experience with just how easily this can get out of balance.”
You are living in a world, at the very top of it, where the pride is completely unchecked. And you can trace back that pride to vast institutions that have been around for thousands of years. It is deep night, the very darkest part of it — and people think it is day.
The point is, though, that we are chosen, and we are designed to be chosen. ‘Make your salvation sure in fear and trembling’. If your salvation is sure, you see how you are poor in spirit, personally. And how the ‘somethings of this world’ are rich in their personal spirit. Be that a combination of wisdom and intelligence of this world, beauty, physical prowess, or whatever. Or singular such traits.
This seems so impossible, to them. Jesus is world famous. Revered by billions, respected by billions more. The prophets and apostles are highly regarded. The few named elect angels are world famous.
But, this is the reality. They are glad they are dead, and glad they are not around. Certainly, the poor in spirit can have some success in the world — David and Solomon were kings. Moses took down Pharaoh and Egypt. But, this is not our world, and people hear these things like love songs. They listen to them, and they go away, without really marking it out in their hearts. To paraphrase a line from Ezekiel.
If they were alive and doing what they do, these people would hate them, and kill them. They are not their friends.
Otherwise, God humbles people as He so chooses, and if they humble themselves, that, too, is because God shows them to do this, and designed them poor in heart.
I am actually very humble, my own self. I am the weakest of those around me. As those around me are angels. They are spirits who can manipulate reality as if it were the fabric of a dream which they are conscious of. They always see the face of God.
As for people, I am weaker then those people around me, as well. I am as weak and as nothing as a person can get. Everything I am and can do, is not of my own self. I am intrinsically nothing, nobody — the later is one of my favorite nicknames.
I exist, and that is my wealth. I see and I hear. I experience. I witness.
I am a highly functioning doll, an observer looking out of a body and a soul. Not only are my circumstances by design, by my every breath, my every move, my every word.
I am a piece of clay, being carved in real time. A pot on the spinning wheel. A tool.
Nothing could be more freeing. I want everyone to be like me.
In this way.
Regardless, I beg God for mercy, all the time. None of this means I am perfect, God shows me how I can be. But, I do not judge myself, either, though I sometimes hate the things I do and say — otherwise, I could not change.
I can have undue pride at any moment. I can fall into any evil thought, at any split second. I relish walking around in horror, due to my circumstances, but also relish being free of that.
My every word is watched, though it may often seem otherwise… I have no true sense of privacy. And, when that illusion has crept upon me, it comes back, and I realize it never was.
I do not look normal, that does not seem to mess with people’s heads. I do not seem to age. That does not usually mess with people’s heads.
I am a Pretender, put in unusual situations.
An actor, on stage, where I am not the writer, nor the director.
I have no concept of free will, and even when I do, I find, it is an illusion. I try and fantasize, and can simply not do it. Maybe I would rather be deadpool, for instance. But, I can not think it.
I make plans, and work them out, but am under no real illusion, normally, that they are even my plans. I can talk about my resume, but I know it is as fake as my birth certificate.
@griz “That’s far too lengthy for me to go into right now.
The condensed takeaway would seem to be that everyone chooses.
With the scope of God’s choices existing beyond all limitations of time and knowledge.”
I really have near zero sense of free will, but, at the same time, see that I do have free will. I can only describe free will as a paradox. On one hand, we have free will; on the other hand, we do not have free will.
So, what are people really trying to describe there with the ‘free will’ concept?
I think – and I am taking into account having studied where this very concept was really considered, during the reformation – they are trying to explain that paradox.
The Protestants argued that there is no free will, whereas the Catholics argued that there is free will. But, really, the argument was only about the Catholics trying to maintain their church as ‘the only way to salvation’, and attempting to maintain that all their rules, regulations, and practices (regardless of how corrupt) were valid and of God.
So, in reality, they argued against their own selves, in this.
What we have is: our own body, our own spirits, and then there is the Spirit of God. Those rich in their own spirit are not yet called by God to receive the Holy Spirit. Those poor in their own spirit are called by God to receive the Holy Spirit.
When do the rich in their own spirit have a chance at eternal redemption?
At the Second Death.
That happens after the Millennium, which has not happened yet.
@five2one
Actually I was raised Protestant and freedom in Christ is a major feature of the belief system.
Maybe you are thinking of the Calvinists?
Even the ancient Egyptians knew the rigid dogmatic belief system would corrupt and ossify without some living and active component to pay attention and breathe life into it. That was the figure of Horus.
And in Christianity that is the Holy Spirit made possible only through Christ. The denominations that try to add or subtract from this are the ones that go dysfunctional.
Your last assertion does not appear backed by scripture, and seems to totally negate what Christ accomplished.
“Even the ancient Egyptians knew the rigid dogmatic belief system would corrupt and ossify without some living and active component to pay attention and breathe life into it. That was the figure of Horus.”
:-) I have Egyptian eyes, and wear an ankh.
Every society has had some manner of light, and the language of their people had to be used to describe to them matters.
“And in Christianity that is the Holy Spirit made possible only through Christ. The denominations that try to add or subtract from this are the ones that go dysfunctional.”
I find most of them dysfunctional on some level or another. The root of that dysfunction could be said to be ‘Babylon’, the ‘Catholic Church’, but God had to decide to put them in that, in the first place. Protestants had a more hard break with them, then the Orthodox do, but both carried significant errors with them.
Exiled to Babylon.
“Your last assertion does not appear backed by scripture, and seems to totally negate what Christ accomplished.”
… looking up my ‘last assertion’…
‘When do the rich in their own spirit have a chance at eternal redemption?
At the Second Death.
That happens after the Millennium, which has not happened yet.’
I can back that up with Scripture, however not entirely. I think God wants people to come to their own conclusions about ‘what will happen’. I am not stating it will be easy.
What I can state, besides looking up various verses which come to mind, is that ‘knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth, as the waters cover the seas’.
And, statements made by Jesus about how our job is to save. Including statements about how the angels try to save the lost, in context of people who are as lost treasure.
Then, there are statements in regards to how God will relent if people repent, I could pull up. And, there is a demonstration of this in Jonah.
The various verses I will not look up, unless requested, are verses depicting a world of immortality and joy. Not the same picture you see during the ‘Day of the Lord’, nor the same picture you see with the ‘Second Death’.
Revelation seems to imply that the wicked will continue to exist, outside of the City, after the Judgment Day. But, does explicitly state this will be the case. And states that ‘there will no longer be any night’, as do some other verses. Which speak of darkness, spiritual darkness.
The reason for the vagueness is knowledge of the heart of humankind, and their own choice to put upon the future negativity and horror for their fellowman, or positivity and faith.
Choices, yes, but choices which one can only make depending on what light God has given them, and their own willingness to save.
It is as a Solomon’s baby question, where Solomon figured out the true mother, not by direct questioning, but by suggesting he would cut the baby in two. The woman who was lying had no problem with this, but the true mother was shocked and beside herself with horror.
In such ways must the truth come out of man.
It is man, not God, who imbued the text of horrors for their fellow, one of never ending torture. God would never put one to never ending torture. But, God knew, if what was said, was said in such a way, there would be those who would want to believe that.
There are many such things as this.
Jonah never would have gone to Nineveh, if he could have. He knew God was gracious and merciful, but certainly was not his own self.
This does not mean he was a bad man.
In these last days, people’s hearts have grown cold. Far, far colder then what Jonah had. Jonah’s reaction was normal, he probably had a lot of love in his heart. Certainly, whatever was happening in Nineveh may have been terrible.
I have been through Hell. I have been in the Abyss. I know there is a way out.
But, no, there is not free will. There is the appearance of free will. There is a limited number of choices people may make, and they are responsible for their choices. But, ultimately, where they are, and what choices they can make, is all dependent on God, and God alone.
There are very many verses which substantiate this.
I am, in fact, not sure what the ‘free will’ argument is. Different people have different takes. The most noxious take is that one thinks one’s self superior to others, because one is saved and good… by their own choices.
If you are superior, which the saved are, and if you are good, which the saved are, you may have a tendency to think those who are not, are not, because of their own choices: their own lack of strength, their own lack of wisdom, their own lack of intelligence.
This viewpoint is because they believe that they believe by their own strength, wisdom, and intelligence.
That is endemic belief set, due to not being born again, and having no experience with Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
These are those who will say, “Lord, Lord, but I did so much for you”, and to whom, the Lord will respond, “Go away evildoers, I never knew you”.
But, this spectrum is wide. After all, we do have the illusion of free will, and we do have free will to some degree. We are called to make choices, to say and do things which are right and good. And we do make mistakes, and are called to frequently repent. In fact, ‘our strength is in rest and repentance’.
How can we repent, if we make no errors?
And, if we make errors, does that not mean we have free will?
Perhaps, but I simply view it as being in shifting circumstances. We are not God. We will be made perfect, but not yet, that will not be in the flesh.
It is possible to be perfect, in the flesh, as Jesus was perfect in the flesh. But we dare not make such assumptions. That perfection is only possible if we have a full grown spiritual body within us. Even then, I am not sure if it is possible — it is not something to obsess over. (Though, admittedly, I do, all the time.)
@griz Evolution, if true, would most likely mean we were terraformed. Because someone else would have done so long before.
But, the nature of humans, is of a perfectly vulnerable form, excellent for error and faith, terrible for survival. Then, there is our nature to create worlds in our dreams, and as children, play gods with toys.
Anyway, well off topic, sry.
I also forgot to mention enoch. Or noah. With abraham, there was a plan, it created a metaphoric language.
But, matters are strange, plenty i believe which is far stranger then the literal text says. Things I never would have guessed, and understanding did not come quickly.
I do tend to see the earth as water, and dark, in the beginning which could mean terraformed… but humans put explanations on things and gold is carefully controlled.
Babylonians believed ppl came from primordial chaos, too. Just the modern form seems more real — to modern people.
@five2one
My personal thought is that none of us was there as first-hand witness! Plus evolution vs Creation is not in any way a “point of salvation”.
It can however, become a point of contention; and a point where the worship of a physical object (a book) produces a kind of infecting ideology. My personal thought is that this is seen in the proliferation of “Bible Chapels”. The key stated rubric is not God or Christ, grace or forgiveness or overcoming, with the Bible as a tool to get there.
Did we get here with a proverbial “Shazam!”. Or was there an inexorable process over time? The former seems the most superficially miraculous. The cake is “suddenly there”.
But it could be a lot more miraculous if the ingredients came into being and fell together in exactly the right way for a complex decorated cake to come into existence!
But “either or” about how we absolutely came to be here, doesn’t really interest me. When the Holy Spirit allegedly fell at Pentecost, people all heard the message “in their own tongue”. The narrative of evolution is a “common tongue” understood by most. And I can speak both in it, and in other tongues as well as need be.
@griz Yeah, I speak a lot of languages. I have seen the transfiguration though, even from the twinkling of the eye… so that is my view. That is, it is about literal transformation, which only will come by God through Heaven.
I expect a mass transfiguration.
God alone can do that.
In that transfiguration, the Angel, in the form of Jesus, first in the flesh, then ‘as one like a son of man’ pointed heavenward. So, that is my primary instruction, God has been building on that, from there.
I don’t need to know everything. I don’t know everything. I do what I do, when I do it. I don’t know much about how that work comes about, or many of the whys and hows.
I do see that work happening, but it is not from man, but from God, through angels, saints, and in my own heart. God is the Spirit.
That work is vastly alien.
I am inbetween worlds, and because everyone I work with are angels, I am the weakest. I am a student.
So, yes, my language shifts. I shift. I go back and forth between worlds, all while on planet earth.
23 responses to “Is all inequality due to oppression and power?”
Define your terms.
@Jear77
Part of the “loading”, is how one chooses to define the terms.
I just pulled this assertion out of prevailing current social reconstructionism ideology.
@griz there may be notable examples, but not always.
No. As an immortal, I have no real power over anyone, nor do I oppress anyone either, but being an immortal gives me an advantage over mortals…
Does an inequality exist? Yeah, I guess it does.
Post script: I’ll still be here when you are all turned to dust…
@immortal_pirate
Wherever value exists, there will be inequality.
Because no matter the value, humanity will manifest differing levels of competency in achieving that value.
Even in marxism where “the value” was equity of outcome, gross inequality was both the vehicle employed unto procurement of said value . . . and also the net outcome!
So inequality is a “constant” of this existence. But there are ways to both live with it, and balance it out. And they seem to look something like exercising responsibility for and competency with oneself.
And then extend this into the societal arena.
@griz Entropy.
Right now, it is, though Satan has been expelled from Heaven, and the reign of God and Christ has begun, massive institutions which must be taken down, remain.
Those institutions were born by Satan, through the Catholic Church.
@five2one
Actually hierarchies of competence predate Roman Catholicism by a few billion years!
@griz ‘Actually hierarchies of competence predate Roman Catholicism by a few billion years!’
I do not believe in evolution, though I have studied it extensively.
I believe ‘God formed the universe, laid the foundation for the earth, and forms the spirit of people in their hearts’ (Zechariah).
I believe ‘we live and move and have our being within God’ (Acts, Apostle Paul).
Not relevant, a discussion on evolution, but I do believe that “competency” is a matter of being rich in spirit or poor in spirit. Right now, the ‘somethings of this world’ are ruling it, and they do so, brutally.
The nothings will outshine them, and are already starting to, but this world is not ours, even if we do already spiritually reign with God and Christ. As Babylon, the beast, and false prophet, all are still standing, as is the ‘statue of Daniel’, which people worship.
Everybody Knows, Sigrid (Original, by the late, great Leonard Cohen):
@five2one
Even if we want to shorten that time frame to the few thousand years of Biblical literalists, we still see hierarchies of competence far far far predating Roman Catholicism.
They are an “archetype” — a narrative instantiated deeply within everyone. Even “primitive” cultures that had no exposure to the history recorded in the Bible operated on hierarchies of competence. (And when they degraded from not enough attention, became hierarchies of power and tyranny).
@griz Well, it can probably seem like a billion years, depends on one’s perspective.
“They are an “archetype” — a narrative instantiated deeply within everyone. Even “primitive” cultures that had no exposure to the history recorded in the Bible operated on hierarchies of competence. (And when they degraded from not enough attention, became hierarchies of power and tyranny).”
Sounds reasonable. I wasn’t there, but like to imagine how these little towns, with dusty roads and thatched rooves, with little children playing ball… slowly became these strange empires.
Man seems to have been left to his own devices, then came Abraham.
He could see past the veil. I wonder if anyone else could, before that.
@five2one
I think the likelihood was high that others could. Abram was just the one that got recorded (perhaps the one who took it the farthest?) so we could be aware of it.
I knew of a Shaman, not literate, having very limited exposure to the Bible or its concepts, who’s story seems to be of one who walked and even communed in real-time with “The Creator” (aka, The Great Spirit) and expected his initiates to learn to “pierce the veil” between “the dream” (what we call waking reality) and “reality”.
There’s the idea that God has not been hiding from those who sought in Spirit and in Truth (seek and ye shall find). It’s perhaps just that not many have?
@griz I have no idea how many have been led by God, but do see that as being chosen. I do not believe anyone comes to God on their own. I do believe, however, in a few being chosen, but that to lead others to God. And, I believe, in the end, that everyone will find immortality in our new bodies.
I do not believe you have to go to a certain church to be saved, and can be saved without even having heard of the Bible. A lot of primitive cultures strike me as ripe for salvation. Enoch did not have the Bible, Abraham did not have the Bible.
I am sure the angels have been busy.
God wanted to save even corrupt and tiny Jonah’s Nineveh, of course He wants to save India, China, everyone, everywhere.
We have 7 billion some odd people on the planet, and are in the business of saving, not destroying.
The plan is to work a mass salvation from here on out. Part of that plan has been to allow global corruption through ‘Babylon’ and the ‘statue of Nebuchadnezzar’. That gives fulcrum for the coming of the Kingdom of God.
I do view that as dreadful, and a lot of work ahead. But, we will be empowered to do so.
‘Finally, after God has put all enemies under Jesus’ feet, he will turn over the Kingdom to God’.
That is ‘why Jesus’ and the testimony. To bring the entire world to God.
That existence will be in new bodies. Glorified bodies, transfigured.
@five2one
While “chosen” is in a real way correct, I think proper humility has to be in concert with it so the negative aspects of pride/ego remain in check. I’ve had first-hand experience with just how easily this can get out of balance.
One could just as easily, “not have been chosen”.
And even in this, consider Abram. God’s Spirit “chose” to “choose” him. But could Abram have chosen not to participate positively? The impression is that Judas made such a choice, despite his obvious zeal for what HE thought things should play out as.
But this exercise of free moral agency didn’t derail God’s sovereign plan. It was allowed to become a vital, seamless part of it.
@griz “And even in this, consider Abram. God’s Spirit “chose” to “choose” him. But could Abram have chosen not to participate positively? The impression is that Judas made such a choice, despite his obvious zeal for what HE thought things should play out as.”
The line comes from ‘many are called, but few are chosen’ and ‘no one comes to me, but that the Father draws them’.
Judas was who he was, because he was made that way. He did make his own choices, but based on lack of knowledge. So did the Romans and Jews who crucified Jesus.
‘We move and breathe and have our being in God’, which Jesus intimated, when he explained that God made sure even the small animals have their food.
Everyone is made by God. Great and small, the ‘nothings of this world’ and the ‘somethings of this world’. This is not so clearly seen, yet, as the time has not quite yet come where God lifts up the nothings to shame the somethings. ‘Showing God, is God of all’.
God did not choose Abram out of chance, but he made him. He designed him for a life of faith. He watched and controlled his life. Abram had free choice, but greater knowledge, so he made the right choices.
He told Moses he ‘had mercy on whom he has mercy on’, but that was clearly to preserve his humility. Moses was created with his life mission in design, from the very moment of his birth.
“While “chosen” is in a real way correct, I think proper humility has to be in concert with it so the negative aspects of pride/ego remain in check. I’ve had first-hand experience with just how easily this can get out of balance.”
You are living in a world, at the very top of it, where the pride is completely unchecked. And you can trace back that pride to vast institutions that have been around for thousands of years. It is deep night, the very darkest part of it — and people think it is day.
The point is, though, that we are chosen, and we are designed to be chosen. ‘Make your salvation sure in fear and trembling’. If your salvation is sure, you see how you are poor in spirit, personally. And how the ‘somethings of this world’ are rich in their personal spirit. Be that a combination of wisdom and intelligence of this world, beauty, physical prowess, or whatever. Or singular such traits.
This seems so impossible, to them. Jesus is world famous. Revered by billions, respected by billions more. The prophets and apostles are highly regarded. The few named elect angels are world famous.
But, this is the reality. They are glad they are dead, and glad they are not around. Certainly, the poor in spirit can have some success in the world — David and Solomon were kings. Moses took down Pharaoh and Egypt. But, this is not our world, and people hear these things like love songs. They listen to them, and they go away, without really marking it out in their hearts. To paraphrase a line from Ezekiel.
If they were alive and doing what they do, these people would hate them, and kill them. They are not their friends.
Otherwise, God humbles people as He so chooses, and if they humble themselves, that, too, is because God shows them to do this, and designed them poor in heart.
I am actually very humble, my own self. I am the weakest of those around me. As those around me are angels. They are spirits who can manipulate reality as if it were the fabric of a dream which they are conscious of. They always see the face of God.
As for people, I am weaker then those people around me, as well. I am as weak and as nothing as a person can get. Everything I am and can do, is not of my own self. I am intrinsically nothing, nobody — the later is one of my favorite nicknames.
I exist, and that is my wealth. I see and I hear. I experience. I witness.
I am a highly functioning doll, an observer looking out of a body and a soul. Not only are my circumstances by design, by my every breath, my every move, my every word.
I am a piece of clay, being carved in real time. A pot on the spinning wheel. A tool.
Nothing could be more freeing. I want everyone to be like me.
In this way.
Regardless, I beg God for mercy, all the time. None of this means I am perfect, God shows me how I can be. But, I do not judge myself, either, though I sometimes hate the things I do and say — otherwise, I could not change.
I can have undue pride at any moment. I can fall into any evil thought, at any split second. I relish walking around in horror, due to my circumstances, but also relish being free of that.
My every word is watched, though it may often seem otherwise… I have no true sense of privacy. And, when that illusion has crept upon me, it comes back, and I realize it never was.
I do not look normal, that does not seem to mess with people’s heads. I do not seem to age. That does not usually mess with people’s heads.
I am a Pretender, put in unusual situations.
An actor, on stage, where I am not the writer, nor the director.
I have no concept of free will, and even when I do, I find, it is an illusion. I try and fantasize, and can simply not do it. Maybe I would rather be deadpool, for instance. But, I can not think it.
I make plans, and work them out, but am under no real illusion, normally, that they are even my plans. I can talk about my resume, but I know it is as fake as my birth certificate.
@five2one
That’s far too lengthy for me to go into right now.
The condensed takeaway would seem to be that everyone chooses.
With the scope of God’s choices existing beyond all limitations of time and knowledge.
@griz “That’s far too lengthy for me to go into right now.
The condensed takeaway would seem to be that everyone chooses.
With the scope of God’s choices existing beyond all limitations of time and knowledge.”
I really have near zero sense of free will, but, at the same time, see that I do have free will. I can only describe free will as a paradox. On one hand, we have free will; on the other hand, we do not have free will.
So, what are people really trying to describe there with the ‘free will’ concept?
I think – and I am taking into account having studied where this very concept was really considered, during the reformation – they are trying to explain that paradox.
The Protestants argued that there is no free will, whereas the Catholics argued that there is free will. But, really, the argument was only about the Catholics trying to maintain their church as ‘the only way to salvation’, and attempting to maintain that all their rules, regulations, and practices (regardless of how corrupt) were valid and of God.
So, in reality, they argued against their own selves, in this.
What we have is: our own body, our own spirits, and then there is the Spirit of God. Those rich in their own spirit are not yet called by God to receive the Holy Spirit. Those poor in their own spirit are called by God to receive the Holy Spirit.
When do the rich in their own spirit have a chance at eternal redemption?
At the Second Death.
That happens after the Millennium, which has not happened yet.
@five2one
Actually I was raised Protestant and freedom in Christ is a major feature of the belief system.
Maybe you are thinking of the Calvinists?
Even the ancient Egyptians knew the rigid dogmatic belief system would corrupt and ossify without some living and active component to pay attention and breathe life into it. That was the figure of Horus.
And in Christianity that is the Holy Spirit made possible only through Christ. The denominations that try to add or subtract from this are the ones that go dysfunctional.
Your last assertion does not appear backed by scripture, and seems to totally negate what Christ accomplished.
@griz “Actually I was raised Protestant and freedom in Christ is a major feature of the belief system.
Maybe you are thinking of the Calvinists?”
No. Martin Luther, “Bondage of the Will”…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Bondage_of_the_Will
“Even the ancient Egyptians knew the rigid dogmatic belief system would corrupt and ossify without some living and active component to pay attention and breathe life into it. That was the figure of Horus.”
:-) I have Egyptian eyes, and wear an ankh.
Every society has had some manner of light, and the language of their people had to be used to describe to them matters.
“And in Christianity that is the Holy Spirit made possible only through Christ. The denominations that try to add or subtract from this are the ones that go dysfunctional.”
I find most of them dysfunctional on some level or another. The root of that dysfunction could be said to be ‘Babylon’, the ‘Catholic Church’, but God had to decide to put them in that, in the first place. Protestants had a more hard break with them, then the Orthodox do, but both carried significant errors with them.
Exiled to Babylon.
“Your last assertion does not appear backed by scripture, and seems to totally negate what Christ accomplished.”
… looking up my ‘last assertion’…
‘When do the rich in their own spirit have a chance at eternal redemption?
At the Second Death.
That happens after the Millennium, which has not happened yet.’
I can back that up with Scripture, however not entirely. I think God wants people to come to their own conclusions about ‘what will happen’. I am not stating it will be easy.
What I can state, besides looking up various verses which come to mind, is that ‘knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth, as the waters cover the seas’.
And, statements made by Jesus about how our job is to save. Including statements about how the angels try to save the lost, in context of people who are as lost treasure.
Then, there are statements in regards to how God will relent if people repent, I could pull up. And, there is a demonstration of this in Jonah.
The various verses I will not look up, unless requested, are verses depicting a world of immortality and joy. Not the same picture you see during the ‘Day of the Lord’, nor the same picture you see with the ‘Second Death’.
Revelation seems to imply that the wicked will continue to exist, outside of the City, after the Judgment Day. But, does explicitly state this will be the case. And states that ‘there will no longer be any night’, as do some other verses. Which speak of darkness, spiritual darkness.
The reason for the vagueness is knowledge of the heart of humankind, and their own choice to put upon the future negativity and horror for their fellowman, or positivity and faith.
Choices, yes, but choices which one can only make depending on what light God has given them, and their own willingness to save.
It is as a Solomon’s baby question, where Solomon figured out the true mother, not by direct questioning, but by suggesting he would cut the baby in two. The woman who was lying had no problem with this, but the true mother was shocked and beside herself with horror.
In such ways must the truth come out of man.
It is man, not God, who imbued the text of horrors for their fellow, one of never ending torture. God would never put one to never ending torture. But, God knew, if what was said, was said in such a way, there would be those who would want to believe that.
There are many such things as this.
Jonah never would have gone to Nineveh, if he could have. He knew God was gracious and merciful, but certainly was not his own self.
This does not mean he was a bad man.
In these last days, people’s hearts have grown cold. Far, far colder then what Jonah had. Jonah’s reaction was normal, he probably had a lot of love in his heart. Certainly, whatever was happening in Nineveh may have been terrible.
I have been through Hell. I have been in the Abyss. I know there is a way out.
But, no, there is not free will. There is the appearance of free will. There is a limited number of choices people may make, and they are responsible for their choices. But, ultimately, where they are, and what choices they can make, is all dependent on God, and God alone.
There are very many verses which substantiate this.
I am, in fact, not sure what the ‘free will’ argument is. Different people have different takes. The most noxious take is that one thinks one’s self superior to others, because one is saved and good… by their own choices.
If you are superior, which the saved are, and if you are good, which the saved are, you may have a tendency to think those who are not, are not, because of their own choices: their own lack of strength, their own lack of wisdom, their own lack of intelligence.
This viewpoint is because they believe that they believe by their own strength, wisdom, and intelligence.
That is endemic belief set, due to not being born again, and having no experience with Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
These are those who will say, “Lord, Lord, but I did so much for you”, and to whom, the Lord will respond, “Go away evildoers, I never knew you”.
But, this spectrum is wide. After all, we do have the illusion of free will, and we do have free will to some degree. We are called to make choices, to say and do things which are right and good. And we do make mistakes, and are called to frequently repent. In fact, ‘our strength is in rest and repentance’.
How can we repent, if we make no errors?
And, if we make errors, does that not mean we have free will?
Perhaps, but I simply view it as being in shifting circumstances. We are not God. We will be made perfect, but not yet, that will not be in the flesh.
It is possible to be perfect, in the flesh, as Jesus was perfect in the flesh. But we dare not make such assumptions. That perfection is only possible if we have a full grown spiritual body within us. Even then, I am not sure if it is possible — it is not something to obsess over. (Though, admittedly, I do, all the time.)
@griz Evolution, if true, would most likely mean we were terraformed. Because someone else would have done so long before.
But, the nature of humans, is of a perfectly vulnerable form, excellent for error and faith, terrible for survival. Then, there is our nature to create worlds in our dreams, and as children, play gods with toys.
Anyway, well off topic, sry.
I also forgot to mention enoch. Or noah. With abraham, there was a plan, it created a metaphoric language.
But, matters are strange, plenty i believe which is far stranger then the literal text says. Things I never would have guessed, and understanding did not come quickly.
I do tend to see the earth as water, and dark, in the beginning which could mean terraformed… but humans put explanations on things and gold is carefully controlled.
Babylonians believed ppl came from primordial chaos, too. Just the modern form seems more real — to modern people.
@five2one
My personal thought is that none of us was there as first-hand witness! Plus evolution vs Creation is not in any way a “point of salvation”.
It can however, become a point of contention; and a point where the worship of a physical object (a book) produces a kind of infecting ideology. My personal thought is that this is seen in the proliferation of “Bible Chapels”. The key stated rubric is not God or Christ, grace or forgiveness or overcoming, with the Bible as a tool to get there.
Did we get here with a proverbial “Shazam!”. Or was there an inexorable process over time? The former seems the most superficially miraculous. The cake is “suddenly there”.
But it could be a lot more miraculous if the ingredients came into being and fell together in exactly the right way for a complex decorated cake to come into existence!
But “either or” about how we absolutely came to be here, doesn’t really interest me. When the Holy Spirit allegedly fell at Pentecost, people all heard the message “in their own tongue”. The narrative of evolution is a “common tongue” understood by most. And I can speak both in it, and in other tongues as well as need be.
@griz Yeah, I speak a lot of languages. I have seen the transfiguration though, even from the twinkling of the eye… so that is my view. That is, it is about literal transformation, which only will come by God through Heaven.
I expect a mass transfiguration.
God alone can do that.
In that transfiguration, the Angel, in the form of Jesus, first in the flesh, then ‘as one like a son of man’ pointed heavenward. So, that is my primary instruction, God has been building on that, from there.
I don’t need to know everything. I don’t know everything. I do what I do, when I do it. I don’t know much about how that work comes about, or many of the whys and hows.
I do see that work happening, but it is not from man, but from God, through angels, saints, and in my own heart. God is the Spirit.
That work is vastly alien.
I am inbetween worlds, and because everyone I work with are angels, I am the weakest. I am a student.
So, yes, my language shifts. I shift. I go back and forth between worlds, all while on planet earth.