In my family it is good that we are connected and share occasions, family news, and opinions. We are all on facebook and share everyday.
In my Baha’i community, we keep up with meetings and messages from National Spiritual Assembly. We have an app called “Group Me” and communicate on that. That lets us announce meetings and get togethers and who is going to attend, or not attend.
The ranch where we buy our natural meats — bison, elk, and other meats — sends us messages of recipes, sales, and gatherings for lunches and dinners on the porch. It feels very friendly to have a relationship with our meat suppliers. They let us know if there is some city happening or celebration where the store will be there selling bison burgers, elk burgers, and bison hot dogs.
Immortal Pirate keeps up with what his adult children are up to, and to share funny jokes.
Then, Immortal Pirate sells his guitars and seagulls at his internet store — called TheStarboardSideStore at Etsy and on facebook. The internet allows him to run the store from his easy chair and local post office.
It is a good thing to be ultra connected with family, friends, businesses, and customers. What bad could come from that?
@ladybarbara people might be able to track your whereabouts.
They might find out (via your appliances) how much electricity you use and for what
they might find out be able to guess (with a fair accuracy) how you vite.
They might find out your health (let’s say you have a medicine that needs refills and something automatically reorders it)
@Jear77 And that is bad how??? I don’t live in a way that is unusual from my neighbors and contacts. I do get really weird calls from sales people. I mentioned to a family member that I fell in the back yard and could not get back up — until something skittered across my hand and I realized there are scorpions all around me. That gave me the energy to get myself up off the ground REALLY FAST!!! I only mentioned it on facebook. Then, I began to get sales calls telling me that I fall a lot, telling me that I need to wear a call button that calls 911. I don’t fall a lot and I don’t need a button to call 911. I just call for Immortal Pirate and he helps me. —– anyway —– the sales calls were every other day and I was getting rude with the sales people. Other than that, I don’t see a problem.
The real danger which concerns me is ‘what comes out of people’s mouths’. I worked towards freedom of speech online with this concept in mind: the general belief that the problem groups censor information (Islam, Communism, Trump followers, etc)…(joking on that last bit — Trump was hardly remembered back then)… and that is a strategy which will always fail when the doors are wide open.
No surprises there.
Inevitably, conflict emerges, but now we have systems to report on bad powers in action.
Really, though, just need a few events of significant enough power to really kick start global change. That has yet to happen.
@five2one even that (speech) has the capability of being tracked. Your microwave might eavesdrop on you. Anything you say might end up in a court of law out of context to convict you of a crime
@Jear77 “even that (speech) has the capability of being tracked. Your microwave might eavesdrop on you. Anything you say might end up in a court of law out of context to convict you of a crime”
I am deeply aware of this sort of mindset, as I have worked in that world of humans, and in that world of angels.
Angels and demons track everything you say, even in private, and all your activities are tracked back. Unless you really have a target on your back, though, I do not think many pay attention to you at all… but every single stray word is accounted for.
I do not have this non-awareness of being watched concept, very much at all.
With humans, yes, technology is going this way, and this is one reason why I am pushing forward towards Heaven. Because we are heading – potentially – to a very “1984” world. Not one where the leadership is good, but where the leadership is very bad.
Human beings can not be very good, instead of using the weakness of their circumstances – foremost of which is their clock running down – investing in Heaven, they, instead, invest in their path in this world. More is never enough, regardless of whether that “more” is material power, fame, or wealth. A lot of that comes by stealing time from others, precious time.
As it stands, as a person, you have to be a person who is inarguable good in your heart, then you are ultimately unarguably good in your outward words and deeds. Though, not by the current standards of the world, but by the standards of God.
@five2one the standards of god are variable! The same god who commands “do not kill” causes mortality, hence killing us all. It also commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and animal, destroying everything in the cities they were conquering. So such a being, if it exists, can’t be all good!
@Jear77 “the standards of god are variable! The same god who commands “do not kill” causes mortality, hence killing us all. It also commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and animal, destroying everything in the cities they were conquering. So such a being, if it exists, can’t be all good!”
I don’t think it is an unreasonable or unfathomable “leap of faith” to not question God on such matters, as God is God, and we are human. We, our parents, ate from the Tree when we were told not to, that it would kill us. Maybe that story was metaphoric in some way, but it is kind of hard to seriously argue that this is not totally like us to do.
I am not even saying I do not question God on matters, big and small. But, really, trying to argue that we should not murder people and that God is a hypocrite, because He could make us all never die seems absurd to me — especially when we are promised an earth one day where there is no longer death.
We clearly are evil, and Jesus clearly was not and is not evil.
I am not saying even that *everybody is always and totally evil all the time*. In fact, I do not even believe you are evil, I believe you play evil, but it is an act. I don’t have physical evidence for that. I suppose I could be wrong.
Maybe you are a Job. Maybe you just should read Job sometime, instead of repeating all of his arguments. Maybe you are trying to corner me into a Job position.
Jesus, I believe was God, and became God’s son for our sakes. He is good and he was good, and his word and life, I think proves that. But, everyone else, really, has not been, my own self certainly included there.
@five2one God’s response to job (the tl;dr version is) “you can’t understand.” Such a god is, if not outright evil, than an asshole unworthy of worship. Don’t make creatures that are incapable of understanding, then.
@five2one not really. It goes back to the Munchauser sydromes I’m talking about in another thread. God, if it exists, should be a creature of infinite logic. It makes zero logic to create creatures such as man and then complain about and punish for what s/he/ir knew they would do. In such a case… simply make such actions impossible OR simply don’t create rhem to begin witb
@five2one ot doesn’t matter whether god is a man or not. Cold, hard Logic still applies. And a being what it supposedly is, there is no reason for it to do elsewise
@Jear77 Cold, hard logic clearly dictates you do not have enough information to go on.
Claiming to fully understand God is patently absurd, especially when you have not received any evidence. Which you have not received because you have not sought.
Claiming God is wrong – or anyone – to make your own self right is not cold, hard logic.
Assuming you know all, including such utter absurdity you mention, as “no one else knows more then I” is far from logical.
I have received evidence. I have no idea what evidence others have received. I can not say no one else has received evidence. While that may be impossible for you to consciously comprehend: do you think you know everything about me and everything I know in regards to easier to digest matters, such as ‘how to do my technical job’?
You do not. You do not know any of my experiences or knowledge.
I have done human secret work, do you know those details, too?
You can not account for anyone else’s knowledge or experience– you simply do not know.
@five2one then the reasons and logic should have been spelled out more clearly. As it is, i go by the incomplete information i have. And if i am damned by it, if by chance there is a god, so be it. An all knowing deity should have given more to base pne’s decisions on… one rhat will hold up to scientific inquiries
@Jear77 ” then the reasons and logic should have been spelled out more clearly. As it is, i go by the incomplete information i have. And if i am damned by it, if by chance there is a god, so be it.”
Well, that is not a standard you use then fairly, your “cold” logic is clearly biased. You pretend like the only acceptable authorities are those who have – clearly – no authority on the subject at all.
“An all knowing deity should have given more to base pne’s decisions on… one rhat will hold up to scientific inquiries”
Yeah, trust in mortal liars who may have some expertise in entirely unrelated subjects, because, why not. See a doctor for your dental needs, a dentist for your doctor needs — heck you would get your house repaired by landing a jetliner in it… and might as well have your legal problems consulted on by monkeys!
Really, who are you fooling here? Nobody would believe such blatant lies, not even your own self.
@five2one this is what seems to be happening: if there is a god, existence is a soap opera, that he wrote and is watching. Under no rukes would rhat be considered even remotely good.
@Jear77 “this is what seems to be happening: if there is a god, existence is a soap opera, that he wrote and is watching. Under no rukes would rhat be considered even remotely good.”
What is wrong with you? You guys are the evil ones, not God. You excuse the world for its’ evil, when you and other people make it and support it?
You murdered Jesus and Jim Morrison. If you want to see what God looks like as a man, there you go, right there.
You just help nail him to the cross, saying, “You did the right thing”.
You justify this by arguing that … what? Your understanding of God is complete?
Maybe instead of reading a bunch of crap by self-styled experts, whom you take on as your gods, instead take the thirty minutes to read the book of Job? Mr “too long/didn’t read”?
You spend what must be days reading a bunch of uncertain theoretical nonsense, and have not even bothered to read the Bible, or even the book of Job which addresses all of your arguments? What painful hypocrisy.
Because, what, you once went to a church — which both Griz and I have constantly said is not what you needed to do.
Maybe read what Jesus had to say, for once. Seriously. How many pages is the Gospel? How sloppy and lazy can you be, to go to court against someone and not even bother to try and hear their side of the story? How is that good or right?
You join in there with other evangelists of Satan doing so: all of whom who preach “there is no God” in their words and actions. The fake Christians. Hitler, the Nazis, Stalin and the Communists. Murderers and rapists.
Every serial murderer, that is their line.
Do you really fear God? You sound like you actually might. All of your accusations are centered around the idea that God is going to come down on your head. At least.
Maybe you are Job. Have you been a righteous man, fearing God all of your days. And yet, then, you received terrible evil?
Jesus preached ‘the world is evil, but God is good’. It is not that difficult of a concept to understand.
God did not make the world, God made the heavens and the earth.
Satan and his princes made the world and they promoted bad people to run it.
@five2one Are you crazy? You forget Jesus CHOSE the path WELL before anyone was in existence – he laid down his OWN life according to the bible, He had a legion of angels at his beck and call to avoid this situation. Do you know how much a legion is? At LEAST 4000! And I should feel sorry and turn my life over to him because he made a poor choice of laying down his life? No! Why should I worry about trying to do right, when I can’t reap the rewards at their fullest potential now? God, if it exists, is a piss poor negotiator “do what I want and you’ll get rewarded” when the truth is that a LOT of people will be told “I knew you not!.” and “I will spit you out of my mouth.” My motto returns: all or nothing. And as I’ve had nothing all my life, I’m 100% happy with it now.
@Jear77 “Are you crazy? You forget Jesus CHOSE the path WELL before anyone was in existence – he laid down his OWN life according to the bible, He had a legion of angels at his beck and call to avoid this situation. Do you know how much a legion is? At LEAST 4000! And I should feel sorry and turn my life over to him because he made a poor choice of laying down his life? No! Why should I worry about trying to do right, when I can’t reap the rewards at their fullest potential now? God, if it exists, is a piss poor negotiator “do what I want and you’ll get rewarded” when the truth is that a LOT of people will be told “I knew you not!.” and “I will spit you out of my mouth.” My motto returns: all or nothing. And as I’ve had nothing all my life, I’m 100% happy with it now.”
Jesus did not do what he did, or say what he said “because of the Bible” — Jesus wrote the Bible.
Jesus did as God would do as a man.
And spoke as God would speak as a man.
Anyway, for an atheist who misunderstands vast and clear matters on God, you do have some things right.
Yet, how many movies and tv shows do you watch where the heroes and heroines suffer through many adversities, showing their soul in it all? And why do people watch? Because of their heroic spirit.
God does not say “do what I want and you will get rewarded”. God actually ‘closes their ears and blinds their eyes, so they will not hear and will not see’, then ‘turns them over to rules of ‘do this and do not do that”.
The spiritual life is dynamic and challenging, it is not one of ‘do this’ and ‘do not do that’.
Regardless, one is not saved but that one is chosen. Free will has nothing to do with it.
Yet, Adam and Eve disbelieved God on the Tree, and believed Satan, instead. They were flesh.
If you give flesh god powers, which they would obtain by figuring it out, via the Tree of Life, they would wreck everything. As they do already, despite their very, very short lives and extremely limited knowledge and power.
Nobody has nothing and is happy with it. I do not believe you.
If you were happy with nothing, you certainly would not accuse God.
@five2one but if god closes these things to them, he himself is to blame. It goes back to don’t do x, expe ting y result, when you know z is tbe outcome already of doing x. That’s why an emotional all knowing deity makes zero sense. God can’t be surprised. So any emotion that would be eliminated by knowing everything is stupid. You don’t like outcome a, then don’t create a situation where it exists. To do otherwise opens you up for accusations of being evil or operating on a double standard
@five2one then why pretend free will is a thing? If everything is preknown, the one who knows it does nothing to alter the events, they’re just as guilty as the one committing the deed!
@Jear77 ‘then why pretend free will is a thing? If everything is preknown, the one who knows it does nothing to alter the events, they’re just as guilty as the one committing the deed!’
I believe, ultimately, in universal salvation.
I do not believe in universal salvation now, but by the time everything is over and done with, then.
The universe is not balanced now, the weak in spirit are the nothings of this world, and the rich in spirit are the somethings of this world. When the nothings are put over the somethings, that is moving towards balance, but not yet.
Only after the final judgment, after the Millennium, will there be true balance, and no longer ‘night’, or ‘darkness’. There will also, therefore, be no longer ‘day’, or ‘light’. But, there will be true equality and harmony.
This can be considering a vast persuading ground, or training ground, until that time.
Lutherans do not believe this way, and would have not have taught this. In fact, I won’t even normally teach this, because I understand why God allows people to believe errors.
But, in a larger sense, there is both free will, and not free will. The trick is simply that we will all need to choose on our own, by our own free will, but there is only one right choice – by far – and that is God.
When God has placed all enemies under Jesus’ feet, then Jesus hands over the Kingdom to God. Then, there will be true equality. But, that is only after the Millennium, which has not even happened yet, which the Lutherans also do not teach. (Or, at least, some branches of Lutherans.)
@five2one i have come across the idea before. While interesting, that means that heaven will be filled with people who were the victims of those who did horrendous crimes and the monsters that did them. Would this be a good thing?
31 responses to “is an ultra interconnected society via computers a good thing or a bad one?”
In my family it is good that we are connected and share occasions, family news, and opinions. We are all on facebook and share everyday.
In my Baha’i community, we keep up with meetings and messages from National Spiritual Assembly. We have an app called “Group Me” and communicate on that. That lets us announce meetings and get togethers and who is going to attend, or not attend.
The ranch where we buy our natural meats — bison, elk, and other meats — sends us messages of recipes, sales, and gatherings for lunches and dinners on the porch. It feels very friendly to have a relationship with our meat suppliers. They let us know if there is some city happening or celebration where the store will be there selling bison burgers, elk burgers, and bison hot dogs.
Immortal Pirate keeps up with what his adult children are up to, and to share funny jokes.
Then, Immortal Pirate sells his guitars and seagulls at his internet store — called TheStarboardSideStore at Etsy and on facebook. The internet allows him to run the store from his easy chair and local post office.
It is a good thing to be ultra connected with family, friends, businesses, and customers. What bad could come from that?
@ladybarbara people might be able to track your whereabouts.
They might find out (via your appliances) how much electricity you use and for what
they might find out be able to guess (with a fair accuracy) how you vite.
They might find out your health (let’s say you have a medicine that needs refills and something automatically reorders it)
@Jear77 And that is bad how??? I don’t live in a way that is unusual from my neighbors and contacts. I do get really weird calls from sales people. I mentioned to a family member that I fell in the back yard and could not get back up — until something skittered across my hand and I realized there are scorpions all around me. That gave me the energy to get myself up off the ground REALLY FAST!!! I only mentioned it on facebook. Then, I began to get sales calls telling me that I fall a lot, telling me that I need to wear a call button that calls 911. I don’t fall a lot and I don’t need a button to call 911. I just call for Immortal Pirate and he helps me. —– anyway —– the sales calls were every other day and I was getting rude with the sales people. Other than that, I don’t see a problem.
More work for me (computer security).
The real danger which concerns me is ‘what comes out of people’s mouths’. I worked towards freedom of speech online with this concept in mind: the general belief that the problem groups censor information (Islam, Communism, Trump followers, etc)…(joking on that last bit — Trump was hardly remembered back then)… and that is a strategy which will always fail when the doors are wide open.
No surprises there.
Inevitably, conflict emerges, but now we have systems to report on bad powers in action.
Really, though, just need a few events of significant enough power to really kick start global change. That has yet to happen.
@five2one even that (speech) has the capability of being tracked. Your microwave might eavesdrop on you. Anything you say might end up in a court of law out of context to convict you of a crime
@Jear77 “even that (speech) has the capability of being tracked. Your microwave might eavesdrop on you. Anything you say might end up in a court of law out of context to convict you of a crime”
I am deeply aware of this sort of mindset, as I have worked in that world of humans, and in that world of angels.
Angels and demons track everything you say, even in private, and all your activities are tracked back. Unless you really have a target on your back, though, I do not think many pay attention to you at all… but every single stray word is accounted for.
I do not have this non-awareness of being watched concept, very much at all.
With humans, yes, technology is going this way, and this is one reason why I am pushing forward towards Heaven. Because we are heading – potentially – to a very “1984” world. Not one where the leadership is good, but where the leadership is very bad.
Human beings can not be very good, instead of using the weakness of their circumstances – foremost of which is their clock running down – investing in Heaven, they, instead, invest in their path in this world. More is never enough, regardless of whether that “more” is material power, fame, or wealth. A lot of that comes by stealing time from others, precious time.
As it stands, as a person, you have to be a person who is inarguable good in your heart, then you are ultimately unarguably good in your outward words and deeds. Though, not by the current standards of the world, but by the standards of God.
@five2one the standards of god are variable! The same god who commands “do not kill” causes mortality, hence killing us all. It also commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and animal, destroying everything in the cities they were conquering. So such a being, if it exists, can’t be all good!
@Jear77 “the standards of god are variable! The same god who commands “do not kill” causes mortality, hence killing us all. It also commanded the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and animal, destroying everything in the cities they were conquering. So such a being, if it exists, can’t be all good!”
I don’t think it is an unreasonable or unfathomable “leap of faith” to not question God on such matters, as God is God, and we are human. We, our parents, ate from the Tree when we were told not to, that it would kill us. Maybe that story was metaphoric in some way, but it is kind of hard to seriously argue that this is not totally like us to do.
I am not even saying I do not question God on matters, big and small. But, really, trying to argue that we should not murder people and that God is a hypocrite, because He could make us all never die seems absurd to me — especially when we are promised an earth one day where there is no longer death.
We clearly are evil, and Jesus clearly was not and is not evil.
I am not saying even that *everybody is always and totally evil all the time*. In fact, I do not even believe you are evil, I believe you play evil, but it is an act. I don’t have physical evidence for that. I suppose I could be wrong.
Maybe you are a Job. Maybe you just should read Job sometime, instead of repeating all of his arguments. Maybe you are trying to corner me into a Job position.
Jesus, I believe was God, and became God’s son for our sakes. He is good and he was good, and his word and life, I think proves that. But, everyone else, really, has not been, my own self certainly included there.
@five2one God’s response to job (the tl;dr version is) “you can’t understand.” Such a god is, if not outright evil, than an asshole unworthy of worship. Don’t make creatures that are incapable of understanding, then.
@Jear77 We can understand the basics just fine, unless you really work hard not to — as you have to admit, you are doing.
@five2one not really. It goes back to the Munchauser sydromes I’m talking about in another thread. God, if it exists, should be a creature of infinite logic. It makes zero logic to create creatures such as man and then complain about and punish for what s/he/ir knew they would do. In such a case… simply make such actions impossible OR simply don’t create rhem to begin witb
@Jear77 You are your own self, you can judge your own self (perhaps somewhat), but judging or claiming to know someone you do not is clearly foolish.
You really have not even attempted to, either.
You would do better with trying to judge Jesus, as Jesus is the only way to know God. And Jesus came as a man, as you are.
God is not a man.
You have done some homework, but not much.
@five2one ot doesn’t matter whether god is a man or not. Cold, hard Logic still applies. And a being what it supposedly is, there is no reason for it to do elsewise
@Jear77 Cold, hard logic clearly dictates you do not have enough information to go on.
Claiming to fully understand God is patently absurd, especially when you have not received any evidence. Which you have not received because you have not sought.
Claiming God is wrong – or anyone – to make your own self right is not cold, hard logic.
Assuming you know all, including such utter absurdity you mention, as “no one else knows more then I” is far from logical.
I have received evidence. I have no idea what evidence others have received. I can not say no one else has received evidence. While that may be impossible for you to consciously comprehend: do you think you know everything about me and everything I know in regards to easier to digest matters, such as ‘how to do my technical job’?
You do not. You do not know any of my experiences or knowledge.
I have done human secret work, do you know those details, too?
You can not account for anyone else’s knowledge or experience– you simply do not know.
That is cold, hard logic.
@five2one then the reasons and logic should have been spelled out more clearly. As it is, i go by the incomplete information i have. And if i am damned by it, if by chance there is a god, so be it. An all knowing deity should have given more to base pne’s decisions on… one rhat will hold up to scientific inquiries
@Jear77 ” then the reasons and logic should have been spelled out more clearly. As it is, i go by the incomplete information i have. And if i am damned by it, if by chance there is a god, so be it.”
Well, that is not a standard you use then fairly, your “cold” logic is clearly biased. You pretend like the only acceptable authorities are those who have – clearly – no authority on the subject at all.
“An all knowing deity should have given more to base pne’s decisions on… one rhat will hold up to scientific inquiries”
Yeah, trust in mortal liars who may have some expertise in entirely unrelated subjects, because, why not. See a doctor for your dental needs, a dentist for your doctor needs — heck you would get your house repaired by landing a jetliner in it… and might as well have your legal problems consulted on by monkeys!
Really, who are you fooling here? Nobody would believe such blatant lies, not even your own self.
@five2one this is what seems to be happening: if there is a god, existence is a soap opera, that he wrote and is watching. Under no rukes would rhat be considered even remotely good.
@Jear77 “this is what seems to be happening: if there is a god, existence is a soap opera, that he wrote and is watching. Under no rukes would rhat be considered even remotely good.”
What is wrong with you? You guys are the evil ones, not God. You excuse the world for its’ evil, when you and other people make it and support it?
You murdered Jesus and Jim Morrison. If you want to see what God looks like as a man, there you go, right there.
You just help nail him to the cross, saying, “You did the right thing”.
You justify this by arguing that … what? Your understanding of God is complete?
Maybe instead of reading a bunch of crap by self-styled experts, whom you take on as your gods, instead take the thirty minutes to read the book of Job? Mr “too long/didn’t read”?
You spend what must be days reading a bunch of uncertain theoretical nonsense, and have not even bothered to read the Bible, or even the book of Job which addresses all of your arguments? What painful hypocrisy.
Because, what, you once went to a church — which both Griz and I have constantly said is not what you needed to do.
Maybe read what Jesus had to say, for once. Seriously. How many pages is the Gospel? How sloppy and lazy can you be, to go to court against someone and not even bother to try and hear their side of the story? How is that good or right?
You join in there with other evangelists of Satan doing so: all of whom who preach “there is no God” in their words and actions. The fake Christians. Hitler, the Nazis, Stalin and the Communists. Murderers and rapists.
Every serial murderer, that is their line.
Do you really fear God? You sound like you actually might. All of your accusations are centered around the idea that God is going to come down on your head. At least.
Maybe you are Job. Have you been a righteous man, fearing God all of your days. And yet, then, you received terrible evil?
Jesus preached ‘the world is evil, but God is good’. It is not that difficult of a concept to understand.
God did not make the world, God made the heavens and the earth.
Satan and his princes made the world and they promoted bad people to run it.
Why is this a news flash to you?
How blinded have you been?
@five2one Are you crazy? You forget Jesus CHOSE the path WELL before anyone was in existence – he laid down his OWN life according to the bible, He had a legion of angels at his beck and call to avoid this situation. Do you know how much a legion is? At LEAST 4000! And I should feel sorry and turn my life over to him because he made a poor choice of laying down his life? No! Why should I worry about trying to do right, when I can’t reap the rewards at their fullest potential now? God, if it exists, is a piss poor negotiator “do what I want and you’ll get rewarded” when the truth is that a LOT of people will be told “I knew you not!.” and “I will spit you out of my mouth.” My motto returns: all or nothing. And as I’ve had nothing all my life, I’m 100% happy with it now.
@Jear77 i am not Jesus, aka, Jim Morrison… but, I am Moses…
So, you have a problem with my… mom and dad…
But you may be Job..
So, how completely stlupid are you?
@five2one EQ is vastly different than IQ and is different from wisdom. It just goes to show you that you can’t have it all
@Jear77 “EQ is vastly different than IQ and is different from wisdom. It just goes to show you that you can’t have it all”
These are man’s terms, they are rather meaningless…
Anyway, that was a silly drunk post you were responding to.
IRL, sober, I am neither silly nor insane.
As for you… I think that there is no hope without the Spirit. ‘The flesh understands the matters of the flesh; the spirit, the matters of the spirit’.
You are lacking the Spirit, so can not understand the matters of God.
You are not stupid. Dawkins, Hawkings, and Sagan were not stupid, though vastly conceited.
@Jear77 “Are you crazy? You forget Jesus CHOSE the path WELL before anyone was in existence – he laid down his OWN life according to the bible, He had a legion of angels at his beck and call to avoid this situation. Do you know how much a legion is? At LEAST 4000! And I should feel sorry and turn my life over to him because he made a poor choice of laying down his life? No! Why should I worry about trying to do right, when I can’t reap the rewards at their fullest potential now? God, if it exists, is a piss poor negotiator “do what I want and you’ll get rewarded” when the truth is that a LOT of people will be told “I knew you not!.” and “I will spit you out of my mouth.” My motto returns: all or nothing. And as I’ve had nothing all my life, I’m 100% happy with it now.”
Jesus did not do what he did, or say what he said “because of the Bible” — Jesus wrote the Bible.
Jesus did as God would do as a man.
And spoke as God would speak as a man.
Anyway, for an atheist who misunderstands vast and clear matters on God, you do have some things right.
Yet, how many movies and tv shows do you watch where the heroes and heroines suffer through many adversities, showing their soul in it all? And why do people watch? Because of their heroic spirit.
God does not say “do what I want and you will get rewarded”. God actually ‘closes their ears and blinds their eyes, so they will not hear and will not see’, then ‘turns them over to rules of ‘do this and do not do that”.
The spiritual life is dynamic and challenging, it is not one of ‘do this’ and ‘do not do that’.
Regardless, one is not saved but that one is chosen. Free will has nothing to do with it.
Yet, Adam and Eve disbelieved God on the Tree, and believed Satan, instead. They were flesh.
If you give flesh god powers, which they would obtain by figuring it out, via the Tree of Life, they would wreck everything. As they do already, despite their very, very short lives and extremely limited knowledge and power.
Nobody has nothing and is happy with it. I do not believe you.
If you were happy with nothing, you certainly would not accuse God.
@five2one but if god closes these things to them, he himself is to blame. It goes back to don’t do x, expe ting y result, when you know z is tbe outcome already of doing x. That’s why an emotional all knowing deity makes zero sense. God can’t be surprised. So any emotion that would be eliminated by knowing everything is stupid. You don’t like outcome a, then don’t create a situation where it exists. To do otherwise opens you up for accusations of being evil or operating on a double standard
@Jear77 I think free will is to play there.
I do consider free will a paradox, but do find it exists. No?
@five2one then free will would have to be a greater good than god. It’s not. Free will is fucked up.
@Jear77 free will exists and does not exist… but there is no greater good then God.
It does not exist in the sense that true knowledge of God is selectively given.
@five2one then why pretend free will is a thing? If everything is preknown, the one who knows it does nothing to alter the events, they’re just as guilty as the one committing the deed!
@Jear77 ‘then why pretend free will is a thing? If everything is preknown, the one who knows it does nothing to alter the events, they’re just as guilty as the one committing the deed!’
I believe, ultimately, in universal salvation.
I do not believe in universal salvation now, but by the time everything is over and done with, then.
The universe is not balanced now, the weak in spirit are the nothings of this world, and the rich in spirit are the somethings of this world. When the nothings are put over the somethings, that is moving towards balance, but not yet.
Only after the final judgment, after the Millennium, will there be true balance, and no longer ‘night’, or ‘darkness’. There will also, therefore, be no longer ‘day’, or ‘light’. But, there will be true equality and harmony.
This can be considering a vast persuading ground, or training ground, until that time.
Lutherans do not believe this way, and would have not have taught this. In fact, I won’t even normally teach this, because I understand why God allows people to believe errors.
But, in a larger sense, there is both free will, and not free will. The trick is simply that we will all need to choose on our own, by our own free will, but there is only one right choice – by far – and that is God.
When God has placed all enemies under Jesus’ feet, then Jesus hands over the Kingdom to God. Then, there will be true equality. But, that is only after the Millennium, which has not even happened yet, which the Lutherans also do not teach. (Or, at least, some branches of Lutherans.)
@five2one i have come across the idea before. While interesting, that means that heaven will be filled with people who were the victims of those who did horrendous crimes and the monsters that did them. Would this be a good thing?
@Jear77 ‘The former things won’t be remembered’.