Or as extension to this, to the toil and struggle it always seems to entail?
We’re quite accomplished at making gadgets that will do our work for us. But what do you think will become of the race, the day we have a gadgets that will do everything for us?
Will we be greater? Or weaker?
Better, or worse off?
What happens when someone or something takes away our gadgets that we have perhaps . . . become too dependent upon? Or the fuel/power to run them?
Thoughts?
© 2026 – SoulSequel
61 responses to “Is there value in work? In self-sufficiency?”
There is value in it, to some extent. The problem is at day’s end as we age. things get harder and harder. So instead of things getting easier… they get more difficult. What that means is all the effort was essentially for nothing. We get sicker easier. We have more aches and pains. The things we did in our youth start to catch up to us. It’s a domino effect, whereby they fall faster and faster – the final result being the person’s death.
@Jear77
There’s an old saying: work smarter not harder!
And not working, not challenging oneself is no solution either.
Things get old and broken down through lack of use. Machines. Bodies. Brains. Even the humanities, if not exercised, soon become a useless for those who have allowed themselves to become flabby in it.
@griz there are some things that can’t be worked smarter. You have what you have at times. Case in point: arthritis.
@Jear77
A big part of the smartness is in not letting it defeat you and finding ways to work around it. ( presuming you are speaking as someone who has had first-hand experience with it?).
I have in my mother: and a type even you might not be able to identify with (rheumatoid). I used to buy and make her all kinds of gadgets that would let her work smarter rather than harder.
There is a way. Provided one’s best efforts are not being put into manufacturing internal mindsets that work against us.
@griz both my dad and mom have arthritis… my dad’s (even at his BEST day) sits comfortably at a 5 (the higher the number, the more the pain). Through the years he’s used a combination of his willpower and powerful narcotics (which he eventually weaned himself off of within my own lifetime). Now he’s winding down. He has only so many steps in a day. My mom, on the other hand forces herself to walk even when people offer her wheelchairs or scooters. But if she does too much, she’ll suffer the consequences and end up having to take pain medicine.
@Jear77
I can relate. My mom was like this during my childhood, and got worse than most can imagine in my teens. And then it killed her.
And their pain resonates in us, in a way the stolen pain of hypothetical unfortunates never can.
But I found there was a difference between sharing in their pain (empathizing), trying to diminish theirs by siphoning some of it off into us (which doesn’t subtract it multiplies), and trying to use it as an angry weapon in a personal vendetta against Life. And the latter would likely pain them greatly, only adding to their pain burden, if they knew you were doing it. (Which will make further demands on their energy and hasten the inevitable)
I grew up seeing devastating pain daily through a child’s eyes. And most of the philosophies I adopted trying to deal with it only ended up hurting me and her greater in the long run.
It is from this background that I can assert that the tactics you are employing are only going to multiply pain both in you and your loved ones.
And now with this knowledge comes a choice for you to make. Is increasing everyone’s pain worth what you think you will get out of it?
@griz I am good enough of an actor that I can do what is necessary.
And if this “life” were so impressive… it should have to hide itself behind a screen of spiritual blindness. As I said before faith should be sight.
@Jear77
Or so we think. Parents tend to be neither blind nor stupid when it comes to the subconscious accuse their children throw.
Even we find value in wrapping awesome gifts up so they have to be opened!
@griz the issue is that the unwrapping occurs in death (or after). So no. The ONLY way to be 100% sure that there’s something on the other side is to experience death… and if Christians were THAT sure about their eternal destination they’d be jumping off cliffs like lemmings to get there quicker!
@Jear77
Whoever told you that we have to wait for death, lied.
It’s like a Christmas stocking where you unwrap one gift after another; with each one so much more amazing than the last, that even if there are no more you are totally satisfied.
But then there’s another and it blows your mind. And another. And there’s promise that the last one you unwrap, will continue in this same process.
You haven’t even unwrapped the first one; and you’re jumping up and down on the stocking because you imagine myriads of possible small issues with the process: and don’t have 100% knowledge of what the final gift may involve.
How silly is that?
@griz if faith were sight that would be true. Otherwise it’s not. We can’t see god in his full glory, if we do, we die.
@Jear77
The belief that someone could be a good friend to you is never proven in foresight.
We don’t always see it while it is in process.
But looking back on it, it becomes apparent.
@griz that means nothing to me… as we have not even the slightest shred of evidence that such exists. Also, you don’t know if what you ask for is being done by this invisible, inaudible, untouchable, un smell-able, un-taste-able friend or yourself. And the thing about math is everything has a probability to it, if you know and can calculate for all the variables.
@Jear77
All of the things you say are true about good friends!
@griz You’ve never had a friend ask you to spot him a $20 (or whatever Canadian currency notation is)? This god of yours has an entire realm of gold, precious gems, yet can’t do anything but does nothing but hoard it… when there’s an entire world of homeless, starving, naked (or poorly clothed), people in need of legal counsel/ services, jobs, etc… yet he expects us to help others in his name. And you call such a being a friend? I would consider that to be the ideology of an asshole!
@Jear77
Why would there be currency and gems in an entirely spiritual Realm?
I suppose you believe there are actual mansions just over actual hilltops as well?
what him I said to you about your religious worship of words on paper?
@griz Then why hype its existence if it’s not a gain in all sense of the term? Let’s say that heavenly accommodations were the Japanese tube rooms for all of eternity? (see here http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2012/10/30/too-big-for-his-bed-squeezing-into-capsule-hotel-in-tokyo-can-make-man-feel.html) Would you still care to stay there?
@Jear77
It’s interesting that you would say “in all sense of the term”, when the only sense of the term you will accept is a purely physical one; one where only death can win.
@griz There are a few physical things mentioned. Perfect bodies. Or are you going to try to weasel out of that one as well? On a more spiritual note: how about nigh infinite power? That seems to be implied in what christ can do. A mere whisper (you don’t see the bible saying that “Jesus shouted with a grandiose gesture “I AM” and everyone was knocked aside!” The bible simply says that he just stated “i am” and the guards fell back). What to do with it? Instantaneous travel anywhere in time and space. What to do with this? How about showing up physically to anyone, performing miracles, just as jesus did. How about helping god to order things as a rewrite of history where it didn’t turn out this way? No, god wants nothing of any such plans. God only wants servitude… slavery for all eternity. You’re not an ancient Israelite, may I remind you? You’re not a doorman at the tent of the LORD, you’re your own person… and so am I.
@Jear77
A perfect physical incarnation is mentioned; likely akin to Eden before the Fall.
But not right after physical death. Not for perhaps an indeterminate period of time. And it’s alleged for only 10,000 years.
So us jumping the gun in orchestrating our own death will hasten us arriving in a purely spiritual realm with no skills or “assets” for accomplishing even elementary tasks. A rather hellish prospect.
The purpose of physical life, is so we can prepare for that Realm through lessons in overcoming rather than in bitching and excuse-making.
Or not.
We’ve been gifted with total choice in this regard. But crabbing about lack of infinite choice in temporal things . . . totally blinds us a an absolute eternal choice we are making badly.
Horrendously.
Hellishly.
You are attempting (though not always succeeding) to fathom eternal spiritual things with physical reasoning that can know only death.
If you’re not afraid of life, stop hiding in death’s cupboard!
@griz I either get all of the power now, or I don’t need it.
@jear77
Apply that same aphorism to money.
I just responded to a post where you seem to think money is the ultimate power.
@griz teleportation, instant healing of EVERYONE I touch, giving the lives back to EVERY homeless person in the world by breaking their addictions, freeing prostitutes from their johns, eliminating poverty by instead of duplicating fish, saying “you have shelter” and the shelters would come into existence. And since I’m such a nobody in the grand scheme of things all of it would go completely unnoticed.
@Jear77
Just watch the dream that owns you doesn’t become a nightmare.
@griz Why would the elimination of poverty be a bad thing? Elimination of everyone’s aches and pains? The vanishing of all pollution, as if it never were? How about making everyone as productive, and as efficient as they could possibly be? There are no downsides to these things.
@Jear77
Look to the natural systems that are the playing field of “natural science”.
What happens in an ecological system when one element of it has all restrictions and limitations upon it lifted?
The balance of that ecosystem is quickly devastated, eventually beyond the ability to support the element that was “released”.
This is how cancer works.
@griz what you’re saying is basically the problem that the sorcerer’s apprentice had: a bit of knowledge starting the cleaning but being unable to stop it… but you’re misunderstanding the point I would have ALL of god’s knowledge and wisdom and power in this scenario! EVERY SINGLE OUNCE, but my own mindset to be able to carry out my wishes
@Jear77
I would postulate that if you WERE God, with unlimited knowledge wisdom and power, you would probably order physical reality similar to how it’s already ordered! (Or put another way, to fancy God is a fool . . . is to require self to be a fool’s fool! No fooling!)
We can postulate (or dream) of what we MIGHT do with even a well-researched sports car, considerable power, considerable wealth, undisputed leadership etc.
But the journey of natural life shows that as wise as we might think (hope, fancy) we are, there are always things (natural consequences) we have not considered, been aware of, or planned for — even unto blowing up in our faces! (Hello, Human History!).
So to try to raise the stakes of our “awesomeness” into the fantasy of BEING the pinnacle of Supernatural Life, is foolishness from first inception.
And only from this point of realization. . . can we START to participate in things beyond just foolishness.
So a question: was there EVER ANYTHING in your ample religious experience . . . that went beyond just trying to leverage God (Life, reality) to your greater glory (liking)?
@griz What does it matter? It made no difference in the end, as he was too picky, and, from my point of view, not something I want in my life anyways. If judged, in a court of law, god would definitely be found wanting.
@Jear77
“From your point of view” is the very crux of the problem.
We can be informed educated and wise by human standards
But the zeal to consider oneself quasi-Divine in these things is allegedly what caused suffering and strife in the first place.
@griz y’see people are hypocritical, to the point of protecting their ideas of right and wrong. When it’s god, no matter the sickness in what the bible says, they’re ok with it. Yet if it were a person who did it, they’re not. If the facts were presented, and people didn’t know who was being talked about, and only after the conviction, the person of god was revealed, the jury would be shocked.
@Jear77
The Crux of the problem is still “from their point of view”.
They try to equate”relationship with a book” (finite), with fellowship with the very Spirit of Life (infinite).
And an interesting hypocrisy arises when the worship of their understanding of the book, blinds them to what the book cautions about worshiping it!
What results is not just spiritual fallacy; it is logical fallacy.
@griz you’re still saying it’s not a problem for god to commit crimes, do whatever he so chooses, set up the entire system that has infinite consequences, simply because he’s god. I don’t see things that way.
@Jear77
It was wise of him to set up an eternal consequence of Life joy and fellowship!
@griz not so. It’s a thing of control. We’re back to Stockholm syndrome again. Mankind is captured by god by its very act of being created. Anything supposedly good that god does allows mankind to feel sympathy/ empathy with the kidnapper, and any character defects are overlooked.
@Jear77
It’s exactly a thing of control. The finite wants to control the infinite. That’s why religions were formed; and why they are all equally silly.
So spot the conundrum in the finite craving an infinite that is controllable by finite means!
@griz I am not going to be a victim of stockholm. You may, if you wish, but to me only an idiot wishes to have others control their fate instead of doing what they may in their own strength, cooperating with others to help where they are weak. You WISH to be a marionette. Why? It’s a thing of the False Evidence Appearing Real of the lord, which hides behind the curtain of a place outside of time, is the beginning of wisdom? No.
@Jear77
My wish is to be free of prisons and incumbrances so I may grow and become all that I can be. I both am, and am in process!
You have freely testified that the path you followed rendered you imprisoned; kidnapped; victimized; a puppet.
We followed different saviors, you and I. And we ended up at two entirely opposite realities that we now bear witness for.
Interesting, yes?
@griz How can you be free of prisons when you ADMIT you WANT (need to, have your greatest desire to be) CONTROLLED in not some aspects, but EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY ASPECT. No personality of your own, no ability to look elsewhere, no ability to have literally any opinions of your own outside that of this thing that is controlling you? If that is what true freedom is I want absolutely nothing to do with it.
@Jear77
Control of ego is what frees us from ego controlling us — and playing us for a fool!
There is no sin in wanting to be in control of oneself! Do you hold that there is valor is being out-of-control of oneself . . . being controlled by every little thing that pushes our buttons or “triggers” us?!
Again, you bear witness of enslavement and dissolution to the god you found in religion.
And I bear an opposite witness of freedom and fellowship in the God I found beyond the religious games.
@griz at day’s end i will be me. Not controlled by some outside force that is in supposedly in charge of every situation, yet can’t do anything to change it.
If you’re so sure, so confident, so faith filled, next time you get deathly ill, don’t go to the doctor. Don’t take over the counter medicine (or illegal ones either). Only pray. See if you get cured. If you are, great! If you don’t, it was your time to go.
@Jear77
Again, you bear witness to the god you found in religion. By all counts, not a very nice one!
I bear witness to the God I found beyond it. One who teaches me to be more and more in charge of myself in whatever situation arises . . . and interestingly of late, to actually have a control of the situations arising around me! (I’ll bet the god of religion never did that for you!).
Only a fool (or a child?) refuses to blow their own nose (help themselves as they are able) . . . always looking for some cosmic nanny to come do it for them.
@griz did it ever occur to you i have no need of that? I am free to do (or not) since I gave up faith, infinitely more than when I thought I had it. And not worry about any consequences.
Yes on 1
Yes on 2
Absolutely nothing makes me feel better than how I feel when I can look at something I have accomplished with my own hands.
The sweat of my brown is the fuel that makes my reflection of accomplishment valuable. Sure, I like making money by DOING nothing, but at the end of the day, what makes me feel good is looking at someone I MADE.
For a gadget to have value to me, it has to be a tool that is used to produce something tangible. Here is my latest “gadget”
@spitfire3dc I’m trying to guess what that is. What is it???
@ladybarbara Ahhhh! A faucet wrench!!!! Of course! —— Immortal Pirate told me the answer.
@ladybarbara I figured he would know.
@spitfire3dc Oddly enough, both of our faucet wrenches are in my tool box. I think I have more tools than Immortal Pirate. I have had to have sinks replaced and bought a few faucet wrenches.
@ladybarbara
The camp I worked at had 189 sinks at last count. And every spring it was my job to get them all running and leak-free.
So I’ve had my encounters with Basin wrenches!
@spitfire3dc If ladybarbra didn’t tell me what it was in her last response I wouldn’t have known what it is
@spitfire3dc
A basin wrench quite elegantly solves the problem that we created in trying to solve the problem of the indoor water on demand!
And it’s not easy to wax philosophical laying flat on your back inside a cramped cupboard wrestling with a rusty compression nut while debris and spiders rain down on your face!
Yes to both of those.
2 years ago, Immortal Pirate was busy in the garage building guitars and we were building these really cool flying seagulls. I was so excited about the work. We were a team. Even if I was not always in the garage with him, just the fact that we were productive and producing a product for sale made me have a burst of energy each day. I loved cleaning the house, doing the bookkeeping, cooking meals that we ate in the garage, and painting seagulls. Nothing excites me more than being productive. It was so invigorating. However, since I moved in here and cluttered up the garage workshop with my 175 boxes, production came to a standstill and the good feelings were replaced with unpacking and …….. I have lost the enthusiasm. I feel stuck at the station with a train out of go-juice.
Life is about being productive. Hard work feels good. We are both retired now. I have a garden and greenhouse to work in. I brought in my first harvest of tomatoes yesterday and it felt good, being that my timing was way off with planting this year.
@ladybarbara Those were the sweetest tiny tomatoes.
@immortal_pirate
Is this true @ladybarbara? Do you really have the sweetest tiny tomatoes?
@griz Hahahahahahahahahahahaha! That made my day!
Seriously though, they were grape tomatoes and they were sweet.
@ladybarbara
It’s productivity versus stagnation.
Productivity and participation with the greater whole is not without risk.
But stagnation and isolation bring their own set of risks.
@griz We will pull out of the stagnation, as soon as I unclutter the man-cave workshop in the garage.
@ladybarbara
It’s interesting how easily and completely stagnation can take control of us.
My recent vacation was a celebration of it!
@griz Nowagays, I am relieved when there is a day on the calendar with nothing written on it. A day of real stagnation would be welcomed.
@ladybarbara
There is no denying they are nice as a break.
I was thinking of how easily we can slip into it as a rut.