And cultures that abandon this belief see almost immediate rises in crime rates that Judicial Systems have proven incapable of controlling.
It remains one of the most accurate predictors of crime in a culture. And the studies didn’t even bother separating between a healthy and unhealthy belief in it.
What are your thoughts on this?
If even an unhealthy and inaccurate view of this “story” (archetype) produce the same desirable effect, have we perhaps abandoned something of value?
(The “Hell Archetype”, hailing from primordial times before organized religion is roughly, “Certain thought and behavior patterns now will result in vicious punishment later”. It is one of the more revolutionary conceps to come out of primitive times.)
© 2026 – SoulSequel
56 responses to “Nations with a strong cultural belief in Hell have demonstrably lower crime rates”
Japan is one of the most secular countries in the world and they have amazingly low crime rates save for the yakuza, which if the government really wanted to be rid of, they could
@Jear77
You may be confusing the cultural acceptance of such “consequence abstractions” with organized religion.
I sort of figured you would, because religion factors very highly in your map of meaning.
But a society can be very secular ie non-religious, and still have a very high morality when it comes to things that ought not to be done.
Was not the ritual suicide, the only way to regain honor and avoid consequence, if dishonor had been committed?
@griz that happened rarely. And more people didn’t have that code on honor than did, hence the existence of ninjas.
@Jear77
The culture is steeped in the Bushido codes of the Samurai.
@griz the existence of countercultures are equally important (if not more so) to history – not just in Japan, but around the world.
@Jear77
One can look at other cultures and find similar dynamic.
I just went with the Japan theme because you presented it.
@griz does this include the fictional account of Soddom and Gomorrah (archaeology found the cities… no evidence of said misdeeds recorded in the bible). Scholars now think the story was a convoluted account to explain the pillars of salt in the area.
@Jear77
What evidence of such goings-on would one expect to find in such an archaeological site?
Yes, I understand the “Scholars” can think many things. Apparent so too can doctors. Some until very recently (and perhaps still?) assert that smoking won’t hurt you.
I feel a bit the broken record here, but one more time: if one worships the book they restrict themselves to just dead words on paper.
Most of the Genesis accounts were passed down as oral tradition and dare I say it, myth . . . for years before being committed to print.
That doesn’t mean they have to be any less a valid part of the picture of progression from then-to-now. But put aside worshiping the dead words on paper and you are freed up to think of them in many contexts simultaneously to find a profound worth . . . and not be faced with having to either live or die by dead scribbles on paper.
@griz pottery. Buildings (burnt). Art. That last one is the one that’s telling. Whatever is going on in society tends to show up in their art. If no evidence shows, archaeologists are right to dismiss any stories out of hand.
@Jear77
Hardened vessels and mosaics in protected locations might survive a volcanic event. But most art would perish; feasibly not leaving enough to give anything more than the coarsest of insights into things like moral structure.
@griz but even those don’t depict anything like what is in the bible!
@Jear77
Agreed.
The kind of detail given in that story could only come from from person-to-person communication.
@griz What makes the most sense logically is that the earth was going through a meteor shower (which has happened in its past) or perhaps a comet or somesuch, and it destroyed the towns, nothing more supernatural.
@Jear77
That is not disallowed. A poor grasp of “the natural” could lead to assessing it as “the supernatural”.
But a poor grasp of “the supernatural” could lead to the applying of the unnatural exclusion in the inability of the supernatural to use natural means to a greater end.
There is huge scriptural precedent for this.
@griz there’s the crux… the supernatural isn’t testable, so in order to prove must rely on science to say whether it exists.
@Jear77
Science is not a suitable “Almighty”. It was specifically designed by Descartes and Bacon to be entirely blind to vast tracts of subjective experience; that we treat as if they are entirely “real”.
Take your religious experiences as prime example. There is no empirically objective measure by which they can be evaluated. All you can offer is the subjective assertion that “they didn’t work”.
But this has no reality in a strictly scientific sense. So how could something that is scientifically unreal have such an impact on your life?
You see.
Science is just a tool; and in no way a suitable measure of all things in a self-aware existence.
@griz the only tool we have. Without scientifically valid, accurate, and testable results with instant results (we’re talking about something that is well beyond the ordinary experiences people have on a daily basis here, and if a god really wanted belief, he’s be more than happy to provide), i can’t be bothered with it.
@Jear77
If that were true how did people exist without it for millions of years?
You are mistaking a modern new tool, powerful within the arena it was designed to be used in . . . For the only tool for everything.
That’s scientism: and that’s religion.
@griz proof? Do you have a study that shows that? If not, nope!
@Jear77
Look it up lazy bones!
The zeal to absolutely accept or reject based on “””studies””” that one don’t bother critically examining is perhaps the greatest evidence of relying on scientism as a religion.
“Thus saith the study”. People are just looking for a new Bible to follow as a religious ideologue; in lieu of exercising some brain power.
Are people afraid to think for themselves?
Absolutely!
They would rather just turn their brains off and follow some High Priest.
@griz tell that to everyone you meet… and soon you’ll be in a nice padded cell.
@Jear77
Perhaps.
But there are people out there who are not intellectually or morally lazy; who are not afraid of thinking, but just have not been shown how to do it yet.
Most of our centers of higher education have shifted from producing freethinkers to producing activist ideologues.
But now that it’s been noticed and correctly identified, we will start to see a change.
@griz really? And who exactly will spearhead it?
@Jear77
There’s an old saying. “Truth will out”.
There are still people out there who value it.
@griz not necessarily. Remember what I said before regarding crime. 90% are never solved. And the way things are set up, those in power tend to stay there
@Jear77
In the short-term perhaps.
Be wary of the postmodernist gospel of “power is the only thing that matters”. No regime of power has ever lasted. But the basic fundamental truths of life and the human experience have remained constant through shifts in power.
But on a scale that most people don’t bother educating themselves to. We get a lot more emotional traction out of pretending that power is the only thing that matters!
(Just be aware of what postmodern neo-Marxism really is before you buy too deeply into it. I’m including a link, but it’s a University-level lecture.)
Just remember that we can ponder things without buying into them — but the need to “demolish” something out-of-hand speaks volumes about ideologies that might “own us”.
@griz but things will over correct and that correction will, of course, require correcion, and back and forth the pendulum swings. Be wary tho – for at the end of the pendulum that you so desperately want to swing the other way is an axe. It doesn’t care who gets caught in its path. Many have been destroyed by its swing.
@Jear77
I like how the Native Medicine Wheel has those wishing to seek beyond their starting direction, swing to all 4 of the cardinal directions (each representing sets of defining character traits) then finding a point of balance in the center.
There’s wisdom in being more than just an endlessly swinging (correcting) pendulum. See the extremes (the factions, the ideologies, the tribalism) that represent our species’ wildest swings, and opt instead for a point of balance.
One cannot be destroyed by the swing, the factions, the ideologies they decide not to play with.
@griz sounds almost like a myers briggs type of a thing: 4 different aspects of a person’s character. But at day’s end it isn’t able to fully encapsulate all that a person is.
@Jear77
There’s similarities.
But the Native Americans came up with it thousands of years earlier and without the tool of the scientific process; which imho makes it quite remarkable. How would an ancient but introspective culture operating totally on the principles of faith, come up with such a thing?
What can fully encapsulate all that a person is . . . except perhaps the Grandest possible reckoning of Life and all-that-is? Even when we (or our “experts”) might think they have the Human Condition nailed down, someone somewhere does something to force us to have to re-evaluate the limiters we’ve tried to put on people; on Life; on “reality”.
The idea from the Native Medicine Wheel teaching is that a person who has found a place of peace and joy at “the center” is no longer swinging wildly OR stuck at one extreme (tie into all the “extremist” thinking manifest on the group, in the world).
With a “playing field” as grand as All Existence (both seen and unseen, known and unknown), one is more free than “encapsulated”.
@griz a person’s m-b type can change with circumstances, tho most people don’t realize it. Mine’s rarely set, except for the introverted aspect. I can pretend to be an extrovert at work, talking to everyone who looks like they need help, but afterwards, I’ve been around people, noise all day long, the last thing i need is more hubub and activity at night. Give me as much time as possible to be away from people as possible.
@Jear77
The Medicine Wheel teaching I speak of is about journey and change of intent: of the individual exercising integrity and control of self rather than let all of their internal “little minions” run the proverbial company as they see fit.
I myself lean by default more towards introvert than extrovert. But my Medicine Wheel intentional “journey to the East” required my becoming more extroverted and outgoing. And now I can be the most extroverted and outgoing person in the room as need be.
My “starting gift” of introversion and introspection still remains “the easiest” default. At least I think it does?? I slip back into it easily enough, and at times have to consciously break out of it. But it’s like I have a different character and personality than I did when I was constrained to an extreme. Life “at the center” really has changed the kind of person I am at the core.
It’s like “the new core” — moved away from the extreme and more into freedom to be whatever is needed or desired in the moment. And with no evident flightiness or lacking integrity. I’m the one exercising control over myself.
@griz i have no need of intent change. And even if i wanted to, being outgoing typically involves being in public and spending $ – something in really short supply until things change.
@Jear77
Intentional change is more a function of looking around, looking at how limited and constrained one feels they are, and not wanting to continue in more of the same.
Notice I said “feels they are”.
We are often not truly as constrained . . . as we might feel we are. This is just part of the process of clinging to the familar (even if it sucks) and fearing what we don’t know/have not yet explored.
Extroversion doesn’t come as easily for me as introversion. But as I journeyed to the East I found opportunities presented themselves and as I didn’t shirk them, more opened up.
That didn’t mean I had to totally do away with the times of quite and comfortable introspection I enjoyed: simply adding a new aspect to my life.
Perhaps “a new responsibility” you spoke of in another post? A responsibility to caged and angsty little critter I’d become?
I looked and beheld a pale horse, and all of hell came with him…
@immortal_pirate
Perhaps.
Prophecy has an annoying habit of mainly being evident only in hindsight.
But we do have a proclivity to overlook our actions and behaviors leading to hellish consequence, to focus on some abstract notion of a hell others might stick us in.
Griz quoted “Certain thought and behavior patterns now will result in vicious punishment later”.
Where does this quote come from?
Could I have a link to one of these studies?
My bullshit alarm is signaling.
After reinstating churches in Russia the crime-rate rocketed, with Russia being notoriously run, in large part, by organised crime now.
@luftballooneyegouge
It comes from common sense. But not many these days have heard of him!
Try lying for being unfaithful to everyone for the next 20 years and see what kind of a hell that leads to!
But the extremely exhausted over-arching study of multiple cultures was done by Zieb Sharif, one of Dr. Peterson’s former students. It was allegedly quite comprehensive. It’s available at the University of Toronto Library.
But now it’s your turn to reveal your sources. I presume it would adequately isolate between the society’s concept of hell and just church corruption, which is a different issue.
When I present these ideas on group, they have been well thought out and backed by research. If they are not I will present them as opinions.
I understand that they can trigger baggage. In a way that is their intent. Because one cannot think and move freely while carrying an abundance of baggage.
@griz & @georockstar09
It’s Azim Shariff & here’s the study:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0039048&type=printable
It’s a mess.
@luftballooneyegouge Yeah, I’m not buying it. It lists Pakistan, Russia, Romania and India as having lower crime rates than the US and Australia. I’ve lived in Romania. There’s a lot of crime and theft there. Not to mention crimes against women and little boys in India and Pakistan. I mean, we all know that in India they pay off the police, or the police blackmail people with false accusations.
My point: a lot of underdeveloped countries simply don’t report their crimes properly. The only reason countries like the US and Australia appear to have higher crime rates is because crimes are documented more thoroughly. Likewise, underdeveloped countries would be more likely to believe in hell because they live in harsher and more economically unstable conditions. This has been proven in history and archaeology: people who lived in harsher climates believed in harsher gods. Harsher environments also leads to underdevelopment leads to crimes not well reported.
I mean, all the countries on the far left of the graph (allegedly with the low crime rates, high belief in hell) are all developing countries (of the ones I could recognize. There’s no legend for what acronym means what either). Whereas in the middle of the graph it’s mostly first world countries.
@georockstar09 & @griz
the shit says
“Data for belief in hell, belief in heaven, belief in God, and
religious attendance were taken from the 1981–1984, 1990–1993,
1994–1999, 1999–2004, and 2005–2007 waves of the World
Values Surveys” -‘Divergent Effects of Beliefs in Heaven and Hell on
National Crime Rates’ by Azim F. Shariff, Mijke Rhemtulla
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0039048&type=printable
The freakin’ ‘World Values Surveys’ does surveys covering those “between the ages of 18 and 85”, so they don’t even have data on the age groups that commit about a very rough average of a third of all crimes.
http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/WVSContents.jsp
@griz claimed, “It remains one of the most accurate predictors of crime in a culture.”
…..but the guy who did the study explained, “Supernatural punishment across nations seems to predict lower crime rates,” Shariff said. “At this stage, we can only speculate about mechanisms, but it’s possible that people who don’t believe in the possibility of punishment in the afterlife feel like they can get away with unethical behavior. There is less of a divine deterrent.”
…the article with the quote continues with:
“He added, however, that these are correlational data, and so caution should be taken with the conclusions.”
https://uonews.uoregon.edu/archive/news-release/2012/6/belief-hell-according-international-data-associated-reduced-crime
….but most Damning of ALL(?!?!?!?)
THE GUY LOOKS & DRESSES LIKE HE’S IN NICKELBACK!!!!!!!!
@luftballooneyegouge
You don’t think the impression one cannot get away with anything would lower the tendency to try?
Yes, the exact mechanism are speculative — and will likely remain so for now.
So what “cautions” would you feel are feasible to apply?
@griz
One of the problems with the study is the simplistics of it.
In Christianity, you can get away with it. You just have to forgive and repent later, so the concept of hell isn’t applied the same way in all religions or their many offshoot franchises.
Many potential criminals who do believe in hell, will take their past to mean they’re damned anyway so south of the sky’s the limit even to the point of rationalizing that since they’re already going to hell later they should maximize what they’re going to get for what they’re paying for.
For religion to be a deterrent, there has to be a moral foundation.
A belief in hell needs very little if any moral foundation, as many will accept it as true because of tradition & repetition of hearing it mentioned by people in positions of authority.
You’re misquoting again. I’d caution against that. Of course I’d caution taking Jordan Peterson, or anything he brushes up against seriously, but we’ve been through that.
@luftballooneyegouge
I know some Christian churches treat forgiveness as if it’s a vending machine. But there is warning against taking advantage of it, and of trying to use God for a fool.
I spoke of both healthy and unhealthy applications of hell no being distinguished in this study. One could probably write a book on the unhealthy applications, some of which you mention.
But those are individual artifacts. The study was a broad one, going beyond the individual to the society as a whole. It would be interesting to see if the “I’m damned anyway so all bets are off” mentality is mostly a western phenomenon. I would not be surprised to hear that it was.
My thought is that the belief in hell serves a function a lot like spanking used to in a bygone age. It didn’t need a “moral foundation” in the child but was in fact a time-honored way of instilling a moral foundation in the child. (To keep this off of a tangent useless for this discussion we’ll rule out unwise, revenge, retaliatory, venting and other predatory spankings)
Actually you’ve not gone into the origin of your bias against anything Peterson brushes up against. I would be interested in hearing about it.
@griz -“Actually you’ve not gone into the origin of your bias against anything Peterson brushes up against. I would be interested in hearing about it.”
SERIOUSLY?!?!?!?!?
We’ve been through this.
@luftballooneyegouge
The joys of accessing the internet with two devices may have caused me to miss this.
I’ll look into it next time I have stable Wi-Fi and the laptop out
@georockstar09
These limitations aside, is it possible that the impression punishment for certain behaviors can be a deterrent against engaging in those behaviors?
And that certain classes of behaviors are best avoided?
@luftballooneyegouge
You’re invited to specify how you think this is a mess.
My thought is that it’s rather well-done and well-presented.
@griz
scroll up
been there
done
This has so many confounding factors, though, that I don’t think one can confidently say that correlation indicates causation.
Jear talked about Japan – is their concept of hell valid? Pakistan has a huge crime rate, yet they are very much religious. Does the Islamic version of hell not count? Even more problematic: are we talking about crimes that are reported only, or are we also talking about crimes that that nation does not deem a crime, but is (rape and prostitution of young boys, neglect and murder of little girls, gang rapes and murders of women).
What do we mean by “hell”? Do we mean fear of punishment in the afterlife? Something else?
I find crime to be more strongly correlated with poverty, and with extreme gaps between the rich and the poor, the haves and the don’t-haves. It’s much more logical as well. Don’t we all like Robin Hood? Don’t we look up to him and deem him good and just? None of us pause and think “he’s going to go to hell”.
@georockstar09
{sigh!}
I suppose it was sort of inevitable that this would get dragged into just a religious discussion that doesn’t seem to even pay lip-service to the pre-religion archetype of “Certain thought and behavior patterns now will result in vicious punishment later”.
Each organized religion’s take/application on this really wasn’t the issue. It was more of a core morality issue, and the ultra-primitive narrative of essentially “sacrificing” some reward or gratitude in the present/short-term, for a better outcome over time. (ie, not lying for short-term gain, set against becoming a societal outcast as someone who lies)
There is evidence that we are the only “creature” that can do this.
@griz I was just trying to look at the issue objectively. The paper did not seem to clarify what they meant by “hell” in their methods or how that varies by religion (which, for a scientific paper, they should). But upon looking at the paper, that’s the least of its problems. It lists Pakistan as low crime rate, but I have a book called “the most dangerous place on earth” and it’s all about Pakistan. And I watched a documentary about its ubiquitous boy prostitutes and child rape.
So I’m not saying the whole paper is not valid, but that they need to eliminate the underdeveloped countries (Pakistan, India, Tanzania etc.) that are known to have faulty crime reports, and focus just on western countries. That way, they also limit the number of different religions that can add more confounding factors.
As a grad student, I am in a huge habit of taking a paper apart and look at the data for myself, not just what the authors say. Not to discredit them, but to understand better. But sometimes mistakes are (quite unintentionally) spotted.
So their conclusion may be true, and it’s quite logical, only that it is not fully supported by the current data imho
@georockstar09
My take on the study is that hell was intentionally left undefined to include any and all variants of the Jungian archetype.
It doesn’t resemble the classic image of a scientific study that we’re used to because it’s part of a new movement trying to bring statistical credulity to concepts and ideas that up until now philosophy and psychology could only postulate and assert.
One would have to look deeper into the study methodology, what is illegal in Pakistan, and how crime is reported and recorded there to make more sense of the Pakistan artifact you mention.
The keynote I take from the study is that people who feel there is no kind of reckoning for acts “done in darkness” would naturally feel more at liberty to commit such acts.
It seems to be exploring whether their was perhaps a wise intent in old archetypes, myths and religions that The Enlightenment has tossed out as pure rubbish.
The more undeveloped countries are a vital part of the mix, because to exclude them would just leave the countries that have already tossed this concept out as pure rubbish!
As I’ve said, these studies are a different creature than those featured on network news that one can “take religiously”. They require some thinking and have to be complex and perhaps a little convoluted, because the study subject, human beings, are complex and more than a little convoluted.
I understand the taking of the data apart to look for mistakes. But we might be accessing mistakes that are not there if we’re expecting it to just be a specific kind of study that we’re used to. Often an unhealthy skepticism can lead us more to exclude than include; to tear apart rather than to see potential building material for a more enlightened understanding.
I would totally agree that such studies seeking to add scientific credulity to things relating to the more complex aspects of Human Nature have to be read and assessed in different ways than we are used to.
They’re not as cut-and-dry ride is trying to prove chocolate and red wine make you healthier!
@georockstar09
I think my response that attach to this was addressing someone else.
Sorry for any confusion. I’ll have to see if I can sort it out next time I have good Wi-Fi with my laptop out.
@griz That’s ok. I’m actually disappointed that I didn’t get notified about your earlier response
@georockstar09
If it was the wrong response I’m glad it didn’t notify!
There was a bit of frustration in that response, and I don’t think I have ever registered that with you.
We differ and disagree on points, but usually end on a respectful note.
(That’s why I was shocked to see that response apparently in reply to you!)