One day, not so long ago, someone used this phrase while we were discussing all sorts of strange matters on the now long closed down, but once excellent subforum “dreams & visions” at christianforums.
I think it is an excellent starting point form anyone who is making a lot of assumptions about what they think the Bible is.
Obviously, where I see strong error with perception on the Bible is from atheists. But, I also see this from “Christians”. I see this from many Christians. I am not saying they are all “unsaved”, or even bad people. But, they often get stuck into what, really, is nothing measurably better then a cargo cult.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult
I read the Origin of Species by Darwin when I was 13. I read every book by prominent atheist Richard Dawkins about two years ago, on the subjects of religion and evolution. I read Carl Sagan’s pivotal book on the subject. I further work in a “sci tech” field, and strongly keep up on the news. On archeaology, on astro physics, on psychology, on all the human sciences, and many of the physical sciences. On quantum physics. I took AP Physics in the 9th grade.
The point I make with making those sorts of declarations is to *try* and avoid people making assumptions about me and “what I believe”. If you view that as “ego”, that is an assumption.
I can tell you the flaws I tend to have are not lack of empathy nor ego, but stuff like drinking too much, or cough syrup, or a penchant for psychedelics. Sometimes I get stuck in weird sexual fantasies for some days. (Normally, I have no sexual thoughts.)
All that out of the way, some major points:
1. Dawkins and Sagan had absolutely awful understanding of scripture. I think, Dawkins said some of the most incredibly stupid and hard hearted observations of anyone I have ever come across. I have studied cults extensively, and some of them have incredibly stupid beliefs.
He exceeded that.
One good example was his declaration on the story of Lot’s daughters effectively raping him. He thought that this meant God was saying that this was good and holy to do. Because it is in the Bible.
Which brings me to point two.
But, one more thing, here. Neither Dawkins nor Sagan are absolute idiots. Both have shown themselves as very capable researchers and above average IQs. But, they act as if they could just go and play tennis though they have never played it before and be the tennis world champion “just because” they “stayed at a Hilton”.
Typically people who excel in an area of expertise have to hyperfocus. Having the inability to realize one is required to do this because we are very finite beings is the height of stupidity.
Thankfully, these two never assumed that because they know genetics or astro physics, that they might as well and go and perform a brain surgery.
I would argue, for whatever reason, their IQ drops to 60 when they approach Scripture.
As is it with many who even swear by Scripture. Sadly. Though, frankly, their exegesis is so bad, I would say even your coarsest, knuckle dragging “Christian” fundamentalists have an IQ of 90 on Scripture.
2. Realize then, that your approach must be “I do not know”. Deeply. Even the Apostle Paul said he does not understand the Law because it is spiritual. Yet, he had extensive Jewish training, and provided some of the best observations on some of the underlying secret meanings of parts of the Law.
3. Understand first and foremost this is a book written by an incomprehensible advanced being. Atheists and fundamentalists alike approach it as if they are equal in measure to God. And that is a very, very low bar.
One very useful metaphor here, I used just recently on a post, and often use myself, and sometimes share is as follows:
So, you can consider the metaphoric framework of God, the Kingdom of Heaven, and angels and such, as if they are from a civilization tens of billions of years more advanced then ours, both in evolutionary terms and in terms of technology.
How then can anyone understand anything from them? You must realize they have been forced to talk your language, and you come from an extremely – unspeakably extremely – archaic and primitive society.
Further, the initial books were written very close to the time of the very beginning of recorded human history and burgeoning human civilization.
By default, people were extremely barbaric and backwards then, even by our comparison, merely five some odd thousand years later. (Though similar behaviors could be found in isolated tribes. Which includes all your ancestors. And with most Europeans, that even means as shortly as five hundred years ago! )
Scale here is extremely difficult to wrap one’s mind around.
Humans are currently estimated to come from the apes merely a few million years ago. And if you look at burgeoning civilization at the very beginning of recorded history? That is only about six thousand years ago! Consider how even technology, and in many ways society, have advanced in just the last fifty years.
Imagine bringing modern technology to Victorian England. Or to ancient Rome. Or to cultures deep in the BC periods. And that is such a trivial slice of time in comparison.
Right now, the rate of advancement in technology is at an extremely fast pace. What happens if this keeps up over the next billion years?
Even someone from a mere five hundred years from now would speak an incomprehensible language. Their ideas and technology would be incomprehensible. It would appear as madness. As “from the gods”.
So, they have to speak your primitive language.
Bear in mind, this is simply one metaphor. It really can help with some important realizations. But, the fact is, we do not know much about the universe, God, Heaven, or our very own future. How can anyone tell people anything without even having the language to speak it?
For instance, how do you describe cars and computers and airplanes to people, or the intricacies of online life? To people in an ancient civilization?
Still, a mere metaphoric framework. I do not consider it very likely that God and angels are literally aliens, and the human concept of aliens and even dealing with extremely ancient and advanced beings, technology, and civilization is extremely poor. Even despite the immense help modern fiction, cinema, video games and such provide people.
The universe could be virtual. The universe could be infinite. Modern understanding could be completely incorrect. There could be infinite numbers of universes. On and on and on one could go. These sorts of details can be useful to open one’s mind and consider the correct approach… but settling on certain explanations goes entirely against the very concept of trying to open your mind and move away from cargo cult tendencies!
4. Erase from your mind all teachings and doctrines from “religion”. Atheists love to consider as the foremost authority on the Kingdom of Heaven the stupidest and most obviously wrong of “Christians”.
As for those who are excelled in their field, would they take their best sources, for genetics, or astrophysics from blatantly obvious worst sources? Of course not.
But, again, massive IQ drop on these matters.
5. A lot of the best material anyone can get is specifically from what Jesus said, as recorded in the gospels. For whatever reason, very many mainstream churches do not teach this. What they do is create their own rules and such things as talk a lot *about* Jesus. Only, if you separate Jesus from his life and teachings, how can you say you actually follow Jesus?
It is extremely difficult for anyone, atheist, or otherwise, to be critical about anything Jesus taught.
So, of course, good reason no one touches that material much.
What sort of things did Jesus teach? Not to judge, to be non-judgmental. Love above all things. To go the extra mile.
Oh, here’s a good one: to not follow the mainstream road, but go out into the roads to find the “road less traveled” for truth. Mainstream Christians, instead, have turned that saying into the “straight and narrow” road, the “one less traveled” as being the one that requires you to do all their weird and stupid cargo cult rituals and above all stay far away from the actual teaching of Jesus.
Jesus said these same things, and pointed it all out. About hypocrisy, about false good, about self-righteousness. He has a monopoly on these matters. And on the promise of immortality. And on the very concept of righteous and salvation to immortality by faith.
Jesus taught to be forgiving and merciful in your heart to others.
Jesus pointed out having a narrow mind is bad.
And so on.
If anyone wants to argue that they should be cruel in their judgments of others, unforgiving, hate mercy, consider love evil, look at going the extra mile as stupid — have at it.
Of course, good reason people don’t try and touch those things, they would appear as they probably are. Ruthless and cruel scumbags that are terrible to be around and operate as a vicious parasite on society, at best.
:P
6. While some parts of The Law certainly can seem base, it is important to first come and realize, “I don’t know why this is here”. One obvious realization folks could come to is the Law pretty well effectively describes the view of virtue as pagan civilizations tend to see it.
Further, it is literally stated it was given so people would believe. And no surprise there, as these were tendencies found in all larger societies. Obvious reasons for these prejudices can trivially be found.
However, what should be focused on are such other matters, as the obvious beauty of the stories in the Books of Moses. Of the willingness to show real failings of even the writer of those books, of the people, and of people of old.
Read the Book of Mormon, or the Koran, and so on, everything is fictionalized, no faults, no errors. No humanity. Clear fiction.
They may have had some manner of heavenly direction. But, on level of purity of information, that is very impure and not the good stuff.
Typically, what atheists and fundamentalists do is take slices they want and use these to “prove” their point. They might as well chop up words into their letters and just rearrange them. The concepts of metaphor, and above all, context, is entirely lost on them.
So, they pick and choose what they want to show others.
But, if you actually read it, and have any sort of open mind, and any sort of capacity to understand literature, it is impossible to come to the conclusions they come to.
Much of the book is full of truly intense and amazing poetry. There are some scenes describing odd matters of Heaven, such as what is found in Ezekiel, which far exceed anything you can ever find even yet in modern science fiction or fantasy.
The depicted interactions are amazing and deep.
The number of deep conclusions and observations applicable everywhere are not able to be counted.
Simply the Book of Ecclesiastes, which practically takes an atheist viewpoint, the wisdom far exceeds all conclusions made to this day. Or Proverbs.
The New Testament is truly intense and powerful works. From the letters of the apostles, to the gospels, right down to the extremely powerful but deeply metaphoric work of Revelation.
No surprise then, that the works of the Bible have deeply influenced all corners of society and is the most quoted book in the universe. And that over millenia. Further, even when it is not directly quoted, it is very, very often paraphrased.
So it is routine to find that even atheists adhere to many of the disclosures made there in. Apparently, entirely without their own knowledge.
6. Nobody can forge the Bible, nor any of its’ books.
That is, one reaction I get when people super dumb it down, with criticism, claiming it is all some super vast conspiracy and pretty much all forgeries… is, really? So, you think you could write up a Gospel, a Romans or Corinthians, or maybe a Revelation? Heck, what about even a Daniel or Ezekiel?
What other book or work can be compared?
I have read a lot of the works of many world religions, and continue to study these things. I have read a lot of fiction and non-fiction. In fact, I love well written material, and love wise sayings. I love excellent poetry.
Biblical level writing, where else?
Or, more rightly, go and write for me an Book of Revelation or a Gospel. So I can be proven you have such skill.
Heck, I would love to see some super genius atheist actually sit back and write a book on how they think the Bible came to be in a fraudulent manner. That would be great. Because it would reveal how moronic that idea is.
FYI, some of the books are contested merely because they predict, with stunning accuracy future events, such as Daniel. It is that simple, they can not believe that Daniel could have predicted all the major world empires from Babylon to Rome, as he did. Nor that he could have predicted the specifics of the Jewish wars shortly before Christ. So he “must have” written during that later period.
Thing is? These matters predicted were put in an extremely metaphoric form. AFTER THE FACT, however, the metaphor became painfully clear even to critics.
You try and look at events in world history and put those things into high quality form after the fact, as you claim or they claim Daniel did. I would love to see that homework.
Dawkins described Revelation as the work of a truly psychotic schizophrenic. Again, IQ of 60 on such things. I imagine he must have had drool coming from his chin to his chest when he dribbled out that moronic observation.
One of my dogs could have given a more erudite opinion. Bark! Head turn. Wag tail.
Why…? For one the Book of Revelation ties back deeply with the entire Old Testament and New Testament.
It is deeply and awesomely organized. Schizophrenics are not organized mentally. Which I would think anyone who reads any science material would know.
But, of course, when you make a despicable and ludicrous strawman out of something, means it is impossible for them to approach such a test in an honest way. They have zero appreciation or understanding of the complexity of it, and would be likely to dribble out some fiction that would be the equivalent work of a six year old and declare, “See, same quality!”
Which would be akin to me making a sarcastic work on genetics or astro physics and intentionally make it absolutely horrible, then insist, it is the equivalent, even superior!
Reality is, anyone who makes these sorts of arguments have a severe perception problem. They may have some part of their brain deeply retarded so they are incapable of comparing quality of literature.
Which, speaking of, we have a lot of it now. 2017. So you would think, according to their theories of forgery and fiction, there would be a lot of equivalent and comparable works.
None.
Certainly Shakespeare has some great stuff. I can speak highly of a lot of fiction, here and there. But, of course, they are heavily influenced by Scripture. Including some of the more bizarre stuff that kind of captures some of the intricate detailed beauty of some parts of Scripture… like the Matrix, Mr Robot, Legion, or Hannibal.
7. I could say much more, but I will end with this. Scripture was written in such a way as to be both an explicit and implicit influence. Western Civilization is so deeply immersed in both forms of influence, that you can actually find a lot of the purest expressions of Scripture via our fictional media. Which should not take anyone by surprise, as Jesus ‘only spoke in parable’.
I could also point out that today, there are some obscure and extremely influential areas of “psychology” where such metaphoric language is used and broken down into concepts so we now understand why communicating implicitly, such as via metaphor is so extremely powerful.
One of the major fathers of such work, is Milton H Erickson. You may have never heard of him, but his work is a cornerstone of much of today’s actually effective psychology methodologies which do not rely on drugs.
Another important resource would be Joseph Campbell, the author of such works as ‘the Hero of a Thousand Faces’. The hero and heroine of modern Western fiction, and so cinema, is Jesus Christ. The Hero with a Thousand Faces.
That is what America and other Western nations put out, and why their cinema is so superior. Japan and South Korea likewise. While Japan is not explicitly nor overtly Christian, they have deeply embraced many of the core concepts. Similar returns with other Asian media.
These are created often by both fans of their own cultural works, but more importantly, of Western fiction. So, it comes out strongly as the gold behind it all.
This does also mean many who do not think they are Christian actually are.
Ironically, while many who think they are Christian are not.
Should this surprise anyone? Animals do not know what they are, why should we expect humans to?
Are they less subjective then animals? No.
If you walk like a duck, quack like a duck, have a duck’s body and were born from ducks, guess what? You are a duck. But, if you were raised among ducks and find you are not a duck… well. Maybe you are a SWAN.
But how can you know, because you do not even know what a swan is!
Qualities? Love as the highest virtue. Going the extra mile. Forgiving and merciful in judgments. Turning the other cheek. And so on.
Open minded.
Okay, so there, much more could be said, but that is quality.
I dare say.
© 2026 – SoulSequel
38 responses to “The Bible May Not Be What People Think It Is”
Twitter response: (140 characters or less) what do you feel the bible IS then?
“Twitter response: (140 characters or less) what do you feel the bible IS then?”
You are right to have been too scared to read that post, because you instinctively know it would get inside your head.
Believe me, I see that sort of fear based behavior all the time with cults and zombies. This is why Islamists are so hard core on banning western media. If they allowed it, there would be no more Islamism. Same with Communist China, North Korea, Zimbabwe, and so on.
Suggestion: why are you so scared to read something and actually **think** for your self?
Also, fuck twitter and your bullshit rules.
Truth is, someone like me is your worst nightmare, because I am NEVER going to tell you what to believe. I challenge zombies until they break out of their mindless life of automation.
I won’t get inside your head. My imaginary duplicate clone of your imagination will get inside there.
“Brevity is the soul of wit” Shakespeare.
I was asking you to be brief. If you answered an interview question with an answer that long, you’d NEVER get a job! Try reading what you wrote aloud. (Seriously) see if you can follow your train of thought. Your writing is a gordian knot, and as in sewing, sometimes the best answer is to cut out the tangled mess, take a new thread and try again.
“I was asking you to be brief. If you answered an interview question with an answer that long, you’d NEVER get a job! Try reading what you wrote aloud. (Seriously) see if you can follow your train of thought. Your writing is a gordian knot, and as in sewing, sometimes the best answer is to cut out the tangled mess, take a new thread and try again.”
My writing is not a gordion knot, it simply goes way over your head.
Why don’t you try and take it slice by slice.
FYI, you are the only person in thirty years who has ever said such a thing, and you are the one with a condition.
I have posted tens of thousands of times, and write at work.
And guess what? Worked at and do work at major companies.
If you are using a verizon phone, I created the initial design of the security software on it.
I also secured verizon networks.
And I created systems of protection which directly influenced leading advanced threat solution providers. My software has helped protect DoD.
Every branch used it.
I have been in many media interviews, and even had regular spot in a major british technical magazine.
Definitely write as part of my job, and off job.
If you can not understand what I wrote, then you have a far more serious problem then AS.
Shakespeare’s quote, further does not even mean what you imply it means here. Because? Guess what?
Every… single… work… of… Shakespeare… is WAY … longer … then… the… above…
<_<
The Bible is a collection of spiritual texts from dozens of authors over hundreds of years. They were selected because they all remained startlingly close to the same spiritual theme of reconciliation between Eternal Spirit and temporary flesh.
The problem is that atheists and Christians alike want to relate to it as if it is an entirely physical object. They conversely hate it and worship it is if it is a physical object, and bound by the physical laws that are really just us thinking we know a lot about everything.
Both inevitably end in folly.
In simplest terms the Bible is a spiritual lens. It “magnifies” whatever spirit is front-and-center in the reader at the moment.
It is said we are created in God’s image; so tha “Spirit” is in us to be magnified. And this is the core intent of the books comprising the Bible. When designed intent and purpose come together miraculous things happen.
But we have other “spirits” in us that can be paramount at any given moment . A spirit of anger of pride of skepticism of arrogance of hubris of fear of selfish gain to name just a few.
And if one of these is in control when we pick up the Bible that is what gets magnified. Often all out of proportion; and with dastardly side effects.
Because one is not using it for its intended purpose.
The first lesson any child picking up the Bible needs to learn before even opening it, is of self-control and intentional purpose.
Interesting theory.
Though, I also have to wonder at your usage of the word “spirit”, as you use it extensively. By spirit, you seem to mean something like a thread of behavior?
Oh, and btw, whether I agree or disgree, am persuaded or not, I do appreciate your original thoughts.
Hopefully, can get Jear77 to start thinking for his own self.
It is just a theory; but one I am not alone in finding good traction in.
The “spirit” of something (of anything), is it’s “deepest core intent”: which then leads to more or less coherent threads of predictable behavior. For example, the spirit of anger or of greed or of “religion” will cause very similar reaction in persons of different times, cultures etc.
It’s “nice” when people agree/affirm a hypothesis. But the nature of Truth is that it doesn’t “need” our agreement/affirmation. That is why seeking Truth (the Spirit of Truth??) is perhaps the noblest of pursuits/drives.
(Which btw is not me trying to affirm “Truth” or nobility upon myself! It’s simply identifying “the Spirit” that I seek.)
@griz “The “spirit” of something (of anything), is it’s “deepest core intent”: which then leads to more or less coherent threads of predictable behavior. For example, the spirit of anger or of greed or of “religion” will cause very similar reaction in persons of different times, cultures etc.”
My conclusion is you are simply a fucking moron who – for whatever unfathomable reason – loves to think of himself as “spiritual”.
Why, I do not know. I guess it is your way from thinking you are different from the shithead you were when you were younger. Now, you are just more of a savvy shithead.
Like any imposter, you love to talk about how you follow Jesus, and somehow always miraculously avoid actually touching on any of his actual teachings.
“Jesus this, Jesus that”, and nothing about what Jesus actually taught. Funny mentalists.
A possible clue for your animal mind should be that you do not actually have any experience with the – The Other World – but… then, wat does one explain about the human world to a rat? Nothing?
Wah, wah, wah… to the powerless imposters. I will burn a candle in your memory. Because you try. :/
:-)
Joking. Fuck off and die.
@Lucifer Rising
Actually, the core (the Spirit?) of this path cannot exist in a heart that fancies itself “spiritual”. (The threshold of this path requires the total acceptance that one is NOT spiritual; or powerful in ANY spiritual way).
That is why any spirituality that does come cannot be feasted upon by the ego. The resulting feedback-loop is both noisy and destructive to self and any in the vicinity.
Again, I take note of your trying to make this personal; against me. I hope you are aware of the statement this is making.
The quest for the very Spirit of Truth (God) doesn’t leave room for personal posturing or finding fault in others. The moment either of these things arise, the Spirit “leaves the room”.
@Lucifer Rising
I appreciate your discourse as well. Like it or not, you have a friend in me. I spend a lot of time thinking about you and (if this isn’t too New Age!) “sending energy your way” for you to do with what you wish.
I’ve seen the term “spirit” used on many different spiritual paths and not just in the Bible. But there seems to be a consensus that it is something non-physical, something “unseen”, but something that is a powerful and persistent driver of perceptions, thoughts and actions. A soul is simply a “lost [personal] spirit” that often finds itself simply the play-thing of whatever is the strongest spiritual influence at the moment.
That can be anything from an alleged “spiritual entity” [bright or dark], to the very powerful internal spirits that our feelings and emotions generate. Consider the example of someone “consumed” by the spirit of anger or of lust, of fear/hate, of their ego doubting it’s own worth.
“The Bible is a collection of spiritual texts from dozens of authors over hundreds of years. They were selected because they all remained startlingly close to the same spiritual theme of reconciliation between Eternal Spirit and temporary flesh.”
Also, I disagree with this. God put the canon together through human beings.
Maybe the last part has some validity to it, in terms of maybe that is a central theme. I do not view it as one, but will have to think about that.
I do understand it is normal for people to be unaware of just how much God controls humankind without their knowledge….
I believe something different then that mainstream belief. I believe God does control at least major events, and on another level, even minor events. But, that later is more difficult for people to fathom.
God controlling nations is well spoken of in Scripture, even of kings who are unaware He is God. This is explicitly revealed in Scripture, and confirmed by history.
Consider “reconciliation” as the main thread that runs through every assembled book.
I am in agreement that God’s Spirit spearheaded the assembly of our modern Bible.
I do not know — nor do I believe I fully can know — where the line is between God actively pushing the buttons and simply “letting things play out” within a framework of His ultimate immutable Will thought time-frames we cannot fathom.
I don’t discount the Scriptures speaking of “God controlling the nations”. But I remain mindful that this was a very common preconception of God pre-incarnation. While Jesus very clearly DID exercise control over the nations simply by his presence . . . one of the Jew’s prime gripes (the one that got him crucified) was that after his triumphant entry into Jerusalem he DIDN’T go to Pilate’s home to “control the nation” of Rome for the Jews!
He went to their temple, to clean it out and re-sanctify as a fit place for the Spirit of God to dwell.
Which is EXACTLY what Christ’s redemptive (reconciliatory) work on the cross accomplished in every believer’s personal life. The Holy Spirit doesn’t “change the nations”: it changes us.
You say that it is not a physical object… yet interestingly enough, if it were completely non physical in nature, we would need to have its contents transmitted into our brains somehow before birth or genetically encoded and anyone who was alive would have access to its wisdom and the need to evangelize would be pointless. So if God’s word/ wisdom, his “life giving spirit” as you like to say, his miracles are so plentiful, amazing, powerful, why wouldn’t he simply do so and cut out the possibility of disbelief and disobedience? And our supposed sinful nature simply can’t be battled without his spirit shown in that we never have to be told as children “now be bad” but we CONSTANTLY need to hear “now behave yourselves.”
What makes the Bible exceptional is not the physical words on physical paper but the Spirit behind it. Not liking this Truth does not change it.
Your Trainwreck is that you want to relate to it entirely physically: worshipping the words (well just the ones you like!); and in trying to manifest enough physical deeds that you can leverage God into a kind of business contract so you can then sue him.
This is 100% physical and 0% spiritual. You’ve connected with the physical words on paper and the physical religion and try to wring out a passible Salvation to your physical liking out of them.
But it is starting to look like there was no spiritual aspect to your salvation experience.
Correct that if I’m wrong, but can you share where the seed landed on good soil in your life and the yield was 30 60 or 100 fold.
The seed was good. But what kind of soil did it land on? And what happened when the seed sprung up?
These are things we have total control over. These are what we get to play God in master over.
Are you familiar with the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon?
Are you familiar with the business model of LinkedIn, with the “rings of association”
If there is “guilt by association” there too needs to be “yield” or “growth” by association.
Given these things as a template, I am not only me, I am *everyone* associated with me not only individually, but corporately. Given that I am associated with a church (local) and well as the association worldwide, and everyone they touch, that means I exhibit yield in the BILLIONS! So sorry to burst your bubble!
Parlor games and business models are perhaps as far from spiritual templates as one can get!
So from your answer, can it be assumed there was absolutely no yield from the seed that was sown? So does that make you the garden that wasn’t weeded — or the rock-hard path where the seed couldn’t even germinate? You totally miss that the Bible isn’t about what OTHERS do . . . but what can come forth in your own heart.
And it sounds like you’ve experienced nothing. There is no “salvation-by-proxy”.
But I forgot! An Almighty God should have made seed that “virused” and infested anything it landed upon or even came close to!
Almost everything you share of late only confirms that you are chucking something you never really tried. Or more accurately, you tried one thing (religion) and disappointment over the results has you trying to sue God (Whom you never knew) and spirituality (which you seem to have never experienced).
No, That’s not a parlor game!
So basically you’re saying that the verses in the bible that stated that the entire nation of Israel suffered because one person took something from a city they were to destroy in its entirety?
And you’re also how, due to the wisdom of Solomon that Israel flourished?
The idea I’m portraying in legal terms is called “Precedent”
So let’s do some math here, shall we? I volunteered at my church, My church has over 1,500 members. Every member was benefited by my volunteer work at some point or another, whether individually or as a part of a group. Some people had benefit multiple, multiple times. I volunteered to repair people’s houses. The repairs not only helped the person, but the entire community in that it increased the home values of the entire area. Add another 500 to that. We’re now at 2,000+. Over the course of the a decade (give or take), I volunteered at for many years to help the homeless, returning citizens, the elderly, those afflicted with various physical and mental problems, including those who had HIV/ AIDS. EVERY person who came through our program was benefited by me DIRECTLY, as I was the person who **created** EVERY SINGLE form they used to be a part of the program. And I was intimately involved in the intake process as well. Add another 3000 to include the people themselves, the families and friends of our clients, the various meetings I attended, etc. My total is 5000+, excluding duplicate yields from one person. so don’t you DARE tell me there was no yield.
Purity of purpose is a good lesson; even if at times an expensive one. And it remains an axiom that the weakest link in a chain is what determines the overall strength of the chain.
Just an observation: you REALLY need to work on a personal philosophy that is not based on reality traumatizing you!
Consider that all your “precedent” is based on a flawed Human model. And asserting that this is all we have to go on . . . doesn’t make it so!
No
Yield.
Nada, zero, zip.
Not in your life. You cannot share even ONE incident where spiritual promise was realized in your life. Again, salvation is NOT “by proxy”. It is NOT “of deeds”. You’ve followed a lie and are now angry at the Truth.
An inspired philosophy?
The examples I used were in the bible. You’re saying these verses I used as an example are a “human model.” In saying that, you realize that you’re admitting that the bible’s texts are made up, fiction – or at least not all you try to make it out to be?
Growth in the knowledge, understanding of the word of god, which according to its own text “does not return void.”
Growth in skill in dealing with others, navigating the smoke and mirrors of the interactions of life, that *everyone* including Christians must do on a daily basis in order to live in society so as not to offend anyone.
Growth in my skills that I used to help the church – that I would not have had if i had not volunteered.
You’re trying to apply physical worldly (and modern) models to a spiritual text. (which is becoming par for your course, I guess!). You love raping content and context to get the message you currently favor.
So Bible study time. Where were the Children of Israel when this happened? What quest were they on? For what broader spiritual purpose did the nation exist at that time? Was it a purpose they had choice in and willingly submitted themselves to? (That one’s a “yes” . . . because they craved the promises!). And finally, what “purpose” could this archaic social example serve today. (I’m thinking of a purpose other than just “suing God”
)
What doesn’t “return void”, is the spiritual purpose and intent of God’s word. Understanding/knowledge is good: but wisdom is FAR better.
I was not aware that “Thou shall not offend” was a commandment!
So I hear you saying that you did gain “something”: specific physical skills.
Again, I would remind you that the Bible is a spiritual text: that God is a spiritual God: and that those who worship him MUST do so “in Spirit and in Truth”.
So what SPIRITUAL experiences or gifts have you gained over the years to help you deal with the reality of . . . reality, such as it currently is? What enables you to carry on when others are quitting and giving up? What helps you to forgive even “the unforgivable” by worldly standards? What gives you joy and peace even when things are crumbling around you? When have you been utterly physically exhausted and at the end of your rope . . . but the need of another has presented itself and you carried on far beyond Human capabilities and found you still had energy to spare??
None of these things comes by physical skill or acumen. None of them come “by proxy” (donating time or money to a “worthy cause”). None of them are the wage or “reward” of “doing good”. They only come by the Spirit.
Which I would surmise has been mostly absent in all of your religious exploits.
So I return to the observation that you are zealous to throw away something you never knew; or only partially knew. Either the good seed didn’t penetrate; or it was choked out with weeds.
Good post and you had me until you were using Thoreau’s words as the red letters of the Bible. (as an aside, Christ did say the gate is narrow…)
There is a lot of great information other than that, at least to that point. I do think that succinctity may have been a worthy aspiration, but I completely understand the need to be verbose, when you are trying to establish clarity for those you judge (non of us really has the capacity to be totally non-judgemental) to be a little thick.
If I may, I will try to capsulize at least one point…the one associated with when this was written and the tool of language specifically.
What hooked me on the need to improve my expertise in interpreting the Bible was one word. Meek, as in the meek shall inherit the Earth. To me, the word could be transposed with the word weak. It was explained to me that meek actually means that which has great strength, but could be effectively managed, as in a powerful horse.
When a four letter word could completely affect my understanding of something as significant as a beatitude; it opened my mind to the understanding that Scripture would be literally filled with similar interpretations, that I would have to drill deeply into before I would really “get” what was being taught.
The value of the Bible, in my opinion, is in the face to face discussion it inspires, especially when you can go beyond the consideration that a church can be something WAY beyond bricks and mortar. The fact that there are many interpretations of the Greek, that was an interpretation in some cases of the Aramaic and the challenges of accuracy in those interpretations demand that you read more than one and then try, often without total success, to find the “average” meaning.
Paul’s letters are so full of wisdom and worthy of way more than a skim. Each sentence and in some cases each word was crafted to help the sheep that needed a shepherd to get the spiritual meanings that were encased in language.
You had a ton of info on your post and some well thought out points, but I’d like to make a suggestion. Consider brevity as a lure and then use dialogue with an interested second party as a tool to give the conversation a more robust energy.
It is ok to lecture in a lecture hall to people who want to be lectured. However, I think the place is designed to be interactive…at least that is what I think?? This is just my opinion and you have every right to be who you are, because it is obvious you are not stupid.
If you care to, I’d like to know, as briefly as you can muster, the reason you have chosen the name you use.
Thank you spitfire, especially for thinking for your own self, as does also Griz. I suppose this is what non-Christians may be incapable of?
I wrote a longer response, then the site went down.
So, brief, no joke intended, have an appt, yes, I love lexicons and use them a lot. But I also paraphrase some scripture if I believe it helps to communicate it, or present it as if fresh. Sometimes I will use popular sayings influenced by Scripture, which do the same, even if that means the influence is twice removed.
Brevity, well, Jear and eye gouge are both atheists, and they would not like the post at all. I point out and reason it out how they are the same as fundamentalist Christians!
I often am brief, and sometimes I am not.
I am not concerned by their digs, they have no concern for intellectual integrity.
To be fair, believers/participators have been gifted a unique set of perspectives and tools. They seem to “happen” and develop subconsciously as one honors the example, the teachings, the very Spirit of Christ.
And one day you wake up and you are seeing things the majority of people are not. (including “professing Christians” — the “believers but not participators” in the Spirit). And putting together things that most people cannot. And understanding things that most people WILL NOT.
It’s a gifting. It’s free and available to anyone; and is intended for everyone.
But the ego and emotions and feelings of the flesh resist it. It helps me to remember how resistant I was to the gifting . . . before the right moment came for me to believe unto spiritual participation. (which is perhaps the antithesis of religion!)
“It is ok to lecture in a lecture hall to people who want to be lectured. However, I think the place is designed to be interactive…at least that is what I think?? ”
I was actually expecting some sort of intelligent, unique response, on at least one of the points.
At best, I got memorized questions that folks got from the internet which are “one size fits all”, and on answering them, they can’t go off script in the slightest.
“This is just my opinion and you have every right to be who you are, because it is obvious you are not stupid.”
It is apparent, that pretty much everyone here either thinks I am stupid, or insane. Which is par for the course.
One poster even stated that he was unable to read it, it was just a giant jumbled knot of nonsense.
Another stated that he was confused because at one point I mentioned cinema, and another point water fowl.
Nobody said, “well on this point, you are completely wrong, though I have never heard this idea before, and here is why”. Or, “you might have something to that, but what about this exceptional condition”.
Clearly, whatever the case may be, I find myself dealing with folks who find every concept in there far beneath them, worthy of the trash. It is apparently either so stupid or so insane, it deserves no intelligent, thoughtful response.
“If you care to, I’d like to know, as briefly as you can muster, the reason you have chosen the name you use.”
Oh, you mean, am I the devil?
No, I am not the devil.
Luci said, “3. Understand first and foremost this is a book written by an incomprehensible advanced being.”
The Bible itself details how it was written by men. It never claims to be written by God. At most it claims that the prophesies came from God, but indeed were recorded by men. So how do men comprehend what is being called, “an incomprehensible advanced being” without some misunderstanding?
Luci said, “Further, the initial books were written very close to the time of the very beginning of recorded human history and burgeoning human civilization.”
Biblical scholors estimate the first stories of the Bible were written down around 1450 BC to 1400 BC.
Sumerian texts date back to 3300 BC. The flood story is lifted from the Sumerians, but there’s enough differences, that it’s separate from the Bible.
As for the calls for brevity, it’s just constructive criticism intended to make you a better communicator.
There’s obviously room for improvement when you write, “I could say much more, but I will end with this”, & then go on about your favorite authors, international cinema, Christian identity, and water fowl.
Your claim that people are afraid to read what you write, is a poor deflection of the initial criticism. You can wrap yourself in an inflated ego, claiming your prose is a life-changing revelation that makes people uncomfortable, but it doesn’t change the fact that you are writing to reach people, and in doing so should seek the most effective ways to do so.
Yeah, I know……. go fuck myself.
“Your claim that people are afraid to read what you write, is a poor deflection of the initial criticism. You can wrap yourself in an inflated ego, claiming your prose is a life-changing revelation that makes people uncomfortable, but it doesn’t change the fact that you are writing to reach people, and in doing so should seek the most effective ways to do so.”
Different people require different approaches, and I do not approach everyone as if they are the very same person.
If you are claiming you never say such things, then “whatever”, I doubt it, especially with your nick.
As for how to persuade, thanks for your two cents, but the problem here is with people’s conscious mind where their mental defenses are required to be bypassed. I do not talk to the conscious, but to the unconscious. It is with folks unconscious I obtain agreement for change of mind.
“Yeah, I know……. go fuck myself.”
Here is a virtual tissue Mr Eye Gouge….
Tissue.
“The Bible itself details how it was written by men. It never claims to be written by God. ”
Yes it does and that is too major to even bother to quote.
Is it written by God through humans? Yes.
Is it written by God TO humans? Yes.
Sorry, I dislike the word “men” being used to mean “human”. Women are human too.
That usage of men, like “mankind” is from a very misogynist past even Western Civilization has suffered from.
“Biblical scholors estimate the first stories of the Bible were written down around 1450 BC to 1400 BC.
Sumerian texts date back to 3300 BC. The flood story is lifted from the Sumerians, but there’s enough differences, that it’s separate from the Bible.”
My, you know everything! What reading such a young man has done!
These are theories, and the flood story is found even in remote, primitive tribes through out the world.
I am sorry you are not well versed in ancient mythology. Your good start point there is the author I also mentioned in the post, Joseph Campbell, author of “Hero of a Thousand Faces”.
No, he did not say Jesus was that hero.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell
FYI, he is basic on anthropology when it comes to ancient mythology. It would be like being in quantum physics and not reading Einstein.
As for dating, that is a theory by people who consider him a fictional person. And it is just a theory.
There is some potential evidence found confirming the existence of Moses which may or may not help settle the question. Regardless, if it was much later then I typically consider it (as many others do as well, as that seems to matter much to you), it is still not so far from the beginning of when human civilization began its acceleration. While that would make it a few thousand years later, the acceleration of advancement in those few thousand years was slow.
I do find it highly likely Moses was trained in Hammurabi’s Code.
“As for the calls for brevity, it’s just constructive criticism intended to make you a better communicator.
There’s obviously room for improvement when you write, “I could say much more, but I will end with this”, & then go on about your favorite authors, international cinema, Christian identity, and water fowl.”
From a hard core atheist critic with Asperger’s Syndrome, and there was one call.
And your post was long.
The phrase he quoted was using Shakespeare’s statement in a broken way. If you believe Shakespeare’s statement meant long writings are devoid of intelligence, then that would mean every work of Shakespeare was devoid of intelligence.
Which is absurd and ripping it out of context.
Now, as for criticism:
Every one of the four posters had criticism. You and Jear both only repeated what others say. I was able to so quickly answer your criticisms – and neither of you had anything good to say – because I run across every single separate “thought” in your replies a thousand times.
Contrast with Griz and Spitfire. They both presented heavily original ideas I have never run across from anyone else.
They also had criticism. But guess what? That is good!
This post has gotten more responses then any post I have ever made at this new site.
Sadly, however, I do not think the atheists here were **consciously** able to take it in.
**Unconsciously**, yes, as that is who I write to. Not you.
You.
And, it would disturb you if you knew my sources and training there.
Not you, the other you.
Conscious mind. Unconscious mind.
You are not your conscious mind.
Where in the Bible does is say it was W R I T T E N by God? Thee only text from God is what is given to Moses. I’m not saying there’s no God, so he couldn’t have written it. I’m saying, it’s not in the book.
You didn’t answer my criticisms at all. “Yes it does…” does not address anything. Oh it’s a quick answer, but I could have gotten that from a child still riding around on training wheels.
Your prose isn’t hypnotic. I’ll just leave it at that.
“Where in the Bible does is say it was W R I T T E N by God? Thee only text from God is what is given to Moses. I’m not saying there’s no God, so he couldn’t have written it. I’m saying, it’s not in the book.”
2 Timothy 3:16-17New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
“I’m not saying there’s no God, so he couldn’t have written it. I’m saying, it’s not in the book.”
2 PETER 1:21
KJ21 For the prophecy came not in olden times by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
“You didn’t answer my criticisms at all. “Yes it does…” ”
With your argument that men, not God wrote scripture, I simply said it is so well known I will not bring up the scripture stating this.
But, as you did not know of these two verses, there you go.
This is not something that I recall being explicitly explained before the New Testament.
“Thee only text from God is what is given to Moses.”
That is failure of basic Scriptural knowledge, you should not even be offering opinions on the matter.
Even if it is difficult to understand how someone could have written these books “carried along by the Spirit”, there are very many pieces of prophecy written where it is specifically denoted that this is God speaking.
This is different from when it is the person speaking.
And, even if you can not understand how God can speak through a prophet in the first person, even detailing their own experiences, then you still are dealing with looking at the words of “highly advanced spiritual beings”.
Because Jesus said “all through whom the word of God came are called gods”, as he referenced a prophecy from psalm.
◄ John 10:35 ►
If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came–and Scripture cannot be set aside–
And, btw, Jesus here is saying “he”, meaning “God”.
NIV
John 10:34-36New International Version (NIV)
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[a]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
It might here be further pointed out, this is Jesus saying God spoke that verse.
Did God literally incarnate to do so? Through the prophet who wrote it, yes.
Just because you do not like what something in it says, does not mean you should try and come up with some screwed up explanation for why it does not that what it says.
Truth is, a number of things are said must be taken in context, and are not applicable. In terms of some matters which provide much offense to those who take it.
Otherwise, I answered your statements point by point, and quickly, as they are all often repeated. It is not like I am talking to individuals, but to an army of robots or zombies who all just say the same things they found on the internet.
Your name is relatively original, but the content of your messages is screwed up, and entirely off base.
As for the strawman argument that claimed I said the way I was writing was designed to be “hypnotic”? No.
Never said that at all.
Pretty much like everything you want to argue is just pat strawman arguments you need to force into my mouth, so your own pat and memorized answers can be repeated.
Say something on your own, at least.
Do you have a capacity for original thought, at all?
You inferred it was hypnotic with all the unconscious unconscious, get in your head, nonsense, probably bled over with your Milty Erickson fascination that you repetitively go on about on here, always with the annoying, “you may not have heard of him.”
You use the New International Version of the Bible which changes “All scripture is given by >>>>inspiration of God<<<<, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" from the King James Version, to "God's Breath" which occurs in 20th century revisions such as the NIV.
Also you said I was an Atheist. Wrongo Ringo
I curse God at least once a day.
“I curse God at least once a day.”
Thank you! An original thought, finally! I googled it, and zero results.
Though, I won’t likely remember it, as I pass it off as a failed attempt to appear to be edgy.
“You inferred it was hypnotic with all the unconscious unconscious, get in your head, nonsense, probably bled over with your Milty Erickson fascination that you repetitively go on about on here, always with the annoying, “you may not have heard of him.””
That is kind of creepy. I do not remember you at all. Therefore, my mistake that you might be atheist.
I remember your name. I recall once saying “oh cool, I like 99 red balloons”, and no response from you.
I have noticed you arguing against Weenis on the left side, but did not note anything you said.
Bizarrely, you are digging through my posts to other people, and yet could not get beyond the first line and a quick scan of this one.
“You use the New International Version of the Bible which changes “All scripture is given by >>>>inspiration of God<<<<, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" from the King James Version, to "God's Breath" which occurs in 20th century revisions such as the NIV."
Oh, a KJV fetish fanatic. Never come across one of those before…
I used the lexicon and the "blue letter bible",and chose NIV. KJV also has many errors. For any real need to get this way, one should always go to a lexicon and compare usages of the terms in context to other usages.
Even if the translation "God's breath" meant "man's breath", I still gave four sources, and that is just one.
One quote effectively was two different sources,
Quick. How smart are you. Which verse was that?
Also, yes, I wrote "about" ducks and "my favorite tv shows"…. :/ <_<
Metaphor, much? Never? Okay. Do you also have Asperger's?
Second respone, on entirely different issues:
“You inferred it was hypnotic with all the unconscious unconscious, get in your head, nonsense, probably bled over with your Milty Erickson fascination that you repetitively go on about on here, always with the annoying, “you may not have heard of him.””
No, I did not.
I did not infer anything of the kind. As you have been reading my posts to other people (I think I have maybe made 2 or a handful, at best, to you… you might note I almost always put “hypnosis” in quotes. [And, when I do not, I am just being lazy.] Which should flag your mind as saying, “You do not know what the fuck I am talking about, but this is the closest to it I can get”.)
Erickson did not even usually put anyone into a trance in his later work. He certainly did at times, of course. But most of his patients he simply talked to and gave instructions. You do not need to go into a trance to communicate with someone’s “unconscious mind”.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-bursley/neuroscience-and-consciousness_b_3468999.html
http://scan.oxfordjournals.org/content/8/8/845.full
http://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2009/10/sci-brief.aspx
Nuance can be gaping.
Hard to believe, but I am not anywhere near as stupid and or insane as you think I am. Or, is a better word, “devilish”? Or, incompetent? Or, maybe someone who says things that are empty?
Lol. :-)
Oh, no, an “ego” flare. Go get him, boy, go get him.
I can only ask that you start talking intelligently, and respond with thought provoking responses, instead of the typical tripe.
So far, at best you have created a new phrase not ever heard before on the internet. “I curse God everyday”.
Anything any deeper then that crap? Or is that all you have?
Cage fight, on the internet!
:/ <_<
Gee. YOU SEARCHED me you devil.
I only have to address Timothy, because that’s the only one that makes your case.
…..want that virtual
t i s s u e back?
@luftballooneyegouge
“Gee. YOU SEARCHED me you devil.
I only have to address Timothy, because that’s the only one that makes your case.
…..want that virtual
t i s s u e back?”
Just to be clear, I never “searched” you.
At best, I searched “weenis”, because he seemed to get I worked once for the CIA, when I never named the agency… and also held biased viewpoints… AND also works “in my field”.
This was hobby, as I have worked CIA, FBI, NSA, and otherwise, and have intensely deep and powerful insurance.
I have a thick map of where the bodies are buried.
“Luft balloon” is from famous song about a guy who worked as a contractor for the government and made an international incident via computer programming….
As I am intimately tied to major DoD and otherwise US government programming… your nick did stand out to me…
But…
It is an 80s song, and I was there to see Neo-Nazis play it back then, just because it was German. And think because it was German, it was Neo-Nazi…
So, no, I do not recall you. Nor your nick. Beyond that. I would not stick my dick in the mouth of a neo-nazi. I would wish they would all go to hiroshima and be vanquished.
Are you neo-nazi? If I recall, vaguely, you sputter on far left communist ideals.
Not much difference…
As for your comments with me, they are mindless semantics, you can not tell a duck from a metaphor.
You are, a complete fucking retard.
NIV versus KJV maybe your best argument, which is fucking totally stupid??
I literally can get more from my latest puppy.
Oh and I bring up the KJV and the chronological order to point out that modern churchers had to CHaNGe the Bible to fit their narrative. My faith doesn’t need a book. IT doesn’t matter if the Bible is written by men, because God does not depend on men,….or women.
….and the whole misogyny knee-jerk reaction was so trite, boring, & completely symptomatic of tunnel vision logic when one has to admit, the Books of the Bible were written exclusively by humans with dicks, which we call men.
Yeah, I do look at other people’s posts. It’s kinda the whole freakin’ point of this site……..
….are you an alcoholic?
@luftballooneyegouge
“Oh and I bring up the KJV and the chronological order to point out that modern churchers had to CHaNGe the Bible to fit their narrative. My faith doesn’t need a book. IT doesn’t matter if the Bible is written by men, because God does not depend on men,….or women.
….and the whole misogyny knee-jerk reaction was so trite, boring, & completely symptomatic of tunnel vision logic when one has to admit, the Books of the Bible were written exclusively by humans with dicks, which we call men.
Yeah, I do look at other people’s posts. It’s kinda the whole freakin’ point of this site……..
….are you an alcoholic?”
Oh my God.
So, first of all, I am drunk in responding, right now. Because I have to be. It lowers my IQ by the necessary forty or sixty points to even talk to some dimwit moron as your self. Are you Rain Wilson? I hope not.
I actually like your acting. But, while you are taller and bigger then me, my cock is about ten inches, and I am super hot looking, albeit not in a traditional masculine sense. But in an “angel demon” way.
My call to fame is helping found much of modern cutting edge computer security. Sad fact is, just a cover. But… good actor, and I would hate that some dumb shit actor would spout off such putrid sperm. While, meanwhile, my sperm, mental sperm with you, hits the mark, and bears babies.
Sadly, I won’t be around to take the credit.
As you can imagine, with really beautiful guys with super massive dicks and IQ’s above 190, we tend to shoot and run.
I will pet your soft hair, though, ugly ass man or woman, and whisper to you about the beauty of the baby you will have for me.
Because you will never learn aramaic, greek, and hebrew, and get your dumb head all confused about NIV vs KJV.
Silly girl.
Will you desperately try and learn the beginnings of the birth of your new babies?
No.
You are a barking and biting child, like my new puppy here. Yes, a rottweiler. Of course.
Always a rottweiller,
But… I know… the paradise my cum will bring your mind and soul….
Right now, like a bitch, you balk at the strong taste of my cum, and argue about the semantics of this new seed planted in your belly….
While I laugh to myself about the disagreements of this weak, young virgin.
@luftballooneyegouge
“Oh and I bring up the KJV and the chronological order to point out that modern churchers had to CHaNGe the Bible to fit their narrative. My faith doesn’t need a book. IT doesn’t matter if the Bible is written by men, because God does not depend on men,….or women.
….and the whole misogyny knee-jerk reaction was so trite, boring, & completely symptomatic of tunnel vision logic when one has to admit, the Books of the Bible were written exclusively by humans with dicks, which we call men.
Yeah, I do look at other people’s posts. It’s kinda the whole freakin’ point of this site……..”
Again, you are complete moron?
Misogynist, yes, you are?
KJV as misogynist as NIV…?
As for me being misogynist, good try? Not even. Would help to maybe recite something I said which was? Instead of just throwing around that label, like you do.
Weakly, and without any aim.
All of your arguments were semantics, and entirely missing the point.
I probably hit out at you as being misogynist. So no surprise you are throwing this at me, without quotes or context.
Not that the reality here is not: you are fucking miserable. You are dying. Wah wah wah. Your life sucks.
Slander helps you. Somehow.
@Lucifer Rising
Where do I accuse you of misogyny?
I hear it only takes 12 steps & you get all the God you want.