How good are you at silencing your ego and thinking objectively?
Does everything have to be subject to you? To your dreams fears hopes and wishes? To your chosen ideologies?
Can you allow something to just be its own thing, even if just for a moment, before you paint it up with broad brush-strokes to your own liking?
Objective thought is rare. Perhaps because it involves silencing the self: and accepting that there may be more than just subjective truth.
Can you think objectively?
© 2026 – SoulSequel
69 responses to “There can be no objective truth if there is no objective thought”
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy
Blocking You ROCKS!!!!!
@luftballooneyegouge
Though the reality that your foundational ideologies cannot allow you to think objectively will eventually “not rock”.
Objective truth exists outside of objective/subjective thoughts. What IS transcends anyone’s thoughts about that “is’ness”.
@Weenis
If thought doesn’t transcend what we already are, then it’s not objective.
They’re just echoes of the self requiring no personal transformation or growth.
This is why ideological echo chambers attract so many.
@griz
Dude, you’re missing it.
https://www.iep.utm.edu/objectiv/
“Thoughts” are necessarily subjective.
“Objective truth” is a completely separate thing than “thought”. It’s separate, and transcendent.
This whole quote is just nonsense words with no meaning or thought.
@Weenis
So to review:
…throws all his shit at walls hoping something will stick.
@luftballooneyegouge
Yes. This 100%.
@Weenis
So would it be correct to say you feel the exercise of exploring beyond what is currently and/or commonly known, to be an untenable personal risk?
Or worse, a social danger one has to actively stand against?
A list of those who were willing to stretch the boundaries of human understanding to the betterment of our species, despite the objections and ridicule of others, would be a long and distinguished list indeed.
@luftballooneyegouge
Meaningful dialogue is what shaped the world of civilization.
The fear of meaningful interaction is what allowed the manifest atrocities of the 20th century to gain so much steam that hundreds of millions had to die to stop them.
Fear needs to be confronted if we don’t want it running away with us.
@Weenis
One can read it that way if they really need to. The question then is why they might need to?
Instead consider it this way:
Is there nothing of enduring reality beyond your current subjective dream?
Is your current subjective dream such a totalitarian representation of all that is and could be, or needs to be considered . . . That there’s nothing left to think of or quest for?
Gerrymandering an abstraction so one does not have to bother looking beyond what they currently think they know and believe they are . . . indicates some objective thinking might be in order.
Searching for greater Truth is objective thinking.
Looking to support an existing ideogical structure is subjective thinking.
Looking to win over someone else for the purpose of advancing one’s status is subjective thinking.
Transcendent versus static.
Alive vs dead.
You asked me just the other day what ideologies you out-sourced parts of your existential responsibility to so you wouldn’t have to think so deeply.
@griz
You’re judging my intentions.
I’m not against thinking deeply, I’m trying to root out your judgement of me since you’re making judgments of what I believe, but not allowing me to defend against the unsaid judgment and assumption.
In the other thread, I post a reply, and you reply to it with some vague worthless response that makes a bunch of assumptions of what I believe, yet when I question what you’re referring to, you dodge.
Example conversation-
You: “I know what you did.”
Me: “What did I do?”
You: “Ohhhhh, you know.”
Me: “Seriously, what are you talking about?”
You: “Well, you see, if I say it, then I’m taking away from you the opportunity for self-discovery.”
@Weenis
Only you and God can judge your intentions. If a Christian is feeling judgment it’s probably from one of these two sources.
Observing the pattern of outcomes (the fruit) is the only Godly option open to the rest of us. And when we share what we see in this fashion we are functioning as the body. (Vs functioning as the “Accusing Adversary”)
That makes The Godly process more about the overarching Spirit than any particular point. But a cluster of points landing outside of the Spirit indicate a problem. And those problems organize into ideologies that are then very easy to become addicted to. (Nietzche’s prediction. Also the dichotomy of Spirit versus flesh that Paul talks of. Ideologies are popular because they service the flesh)
The judgement you are trying to “root out” is quite likely there. But it isn’t “of me”. I’m just following the Godly process of pointing out what I see to someone professing Christ.
What is being called a vague dodge, is The Godly process of sharing what is seen without trying to judge the intentions.
A point of ideology is the sleight of hand (or mind) that resents/resists a Godly process while charging it is the exact opposite of what it truly is. Increased evil is Justified as righteous against what is wrongly perceived as evil.
The only way to give you what you crave, is to be ungodly. That’s the path of The Trickster.
Remember we are just talking about spiritual ethical and philosophical archetypes . . . Unless either God or self step in and say “Hey that’s personal!”
@griz
This is an example of judging my intentions.
@Weenis
Only if it’s true.
Change it to a “we” and include me if you’d like. It’s a universal process we are all guilty of as we are guilty of it. (By their fruit. . .)
Another symptom of ideological infection is that deep thinking is entirely avoided just to make a point of procedure. (Or ad hominem, or grammar etc). Deep and honest creative thinking is the enemy of ideological possession.
Remember we are talking about the object of possessing ideologies and not the subject of either you or I personally . . . unless that is where “our Lord and Master” is taking it.
(With each of us having a lot a deep thinking to do, on exactly what that means to each of us).
@griz
A judgement of my intention has no basis on whether or not it’s true. Your statement is just straight up a judgement of my intention. Hence me wanting to know what the basis of your judgement is.
@Weenis
Another symptom of ideological possession is the need to equate observation with accusation.
That’s because ideologies are weak, and simple observation of what they manifest in their ideolologues over time, undoes them.
Therefore all observations need to be transformed into accusations for the sake of protecting the ideology.
The contrast is that in Christ we can rejoice and count it as our great reward when others try to revile and persecute us. But only as we stand solid on the Rock.
Because in the fullness of time the Logos stands, while the lie devours itself.
That’s why I invited you to include me in that observation.
I object…
Objection over ruled. Subject will remain silent in my court…
@immortal_pirate
I won’t Court disaster!
The “is” is what is. It doesn’t matter what anyone says about it, the “is” still is. You can look at what others think about it, but in the end it still is. Simply accept that the is is the is, just as it is. Adjust your life to the is that is.
You can ask that I look at other views —- but the is will still be what is.
Accept it and get on with life.
Yes, it would be great if the is fits into my hopes, dreams, and wishes. But the is doesn’t always fit. So, adapt and get on with life!!!
If asked to think more objectively than that —- then I will revolt!!!
Now I am going to revolt !!!
Consider me now revolting!!!
@ladybarbara
A transcendent IS (or I AM to use the judeo Christian nomenclature), means one can entertain opinion and thought beyond the ideologies of self without the foundation crumbling.
This is one of the key markers of the genuine person, over the disingenuous.
That was a wonderful response; leaning more towards attractive than revolting! Some true objective thinking.
“There can be no objective truth if there is no objective thought”
This statement is absolute nihilism.
@luftballooneyegouge
Only if one is totalitarian in the assertion neither exists.
Objective thought needs to be based in provable facts and empirical data above the point of placebo; common sense, not flights of fancy or hatred, fear (or even love) of X — even if X is something that goes against the very fiber of your being (or something that you love so much you’d give up your very existence for the love of it); and able to be used (not have it use you) in daily life to the point that it’s more ubiquitous than air (3 minutes), shelter (3 hours), or water (3 days) for survival. So let’s turn that question to you: can you?
@Jear77
Just an observation. You take scientism as an ideology, but only acknowledge half of the scientific realm.
Empiricism based science, which Remains the easiest aspect of science to spoon-feed. One relies on “someone else” to do all the work and tell them what is safe to believe. In that regard it is almost exactly like the religion you profess to be leaving. (When you are not running back into it to try to take justifying pokes at it! It’s time to stop beating that dead horse)
What is being conveniently ignored is hypothesis based science: which is really the Workhorse of science: doing all of the heavy lifting where the answer is a little more complex than just a yes or no.
To be totally blunt you are still craving a Pope to come and tell you what and how to think: and to blame when it doesn’t work out. In that regard you are still one of the more religious men that I know.
“Every fiber of our being” is often just a euphemism for our ego that is afraid to bravely step forth into the new territory where true human existence departs from a lower mostly animal existence.
@griz actually… no! Hypothesis must be tested and shown A) True or B) False. Those are the only 2 outcomes (except for medicine, due to differences in biology). Is there *any* sort of test of god that will show presise, repeatable reults time and again? And are these results based on some unknown science that we don’t have a full grasp of yet, instead of a god? How would we differentiate?
@Jear77
But there is a lot more effort, and even personal effort, in formulating sound hypothesis and procedure to test it.
Bad hypothesis, or bad procedure for testing good hypothesis, still end in bed science.
That was supposed to say bad science. But we’ll leave it as bed science, because that’s where the truth gets fucked!
And the truth is it remains far easier to fall back on on wanting a proverbial Pope to tell us what and how to think; and to carry the blame if we feel “the guarantee” has been violated.
@griz once again, your hypothesis is that there is a god. How do you propose to properly test said idea in a way that is repeatable and quantifiable? And while doing so, remember the placebo effect number.
@Jear77
Everyone prove this by daily acting as if it exists. Someone who does not have a “high ideal” giving them focus direction and guidance when they come to a fork in the road, inevitably lapses in to mental illness.
Every single person tests and proves this every single day.
Even you act as if there is a God.
Just what that God is and how Transcendent (or benevolent), it is is another discussion.
@griz if i do that i lose me, and become someone who i don’t ever wish to be. As i said before, there’s not a single point of common ground between myself and such a being, to what purpose would it serve? None. In fact, it would be detrimental to me, as in doing so i lose the progress i’ve made to become more human.
@Jear77
Parts of us that are hindering or even sabotaging our personal growth, and causing unnecessary fear and suffering along the way, rightfully need to be sacrificed.
The common point with the Spirit of Life, is that you for now (despite abundant self-sabotage) are alive.
We’ve already established that the entity you say you have nothing in common with is merely a religious construct. You claim to have left that behind. So leave it behind already!!!
To be human is not glorying in our suffering and even increasing it. It is being the embodiment of the Logos that precisely speaks creative truth into the chaos unto to the creation of habitable order. You could use some of that right now.
To be human is not to find more ways to make ourselves more quickly dead. If that is all we feel we can relate to, we’ve slipped into somethind hellish.
Something that we then need rescuing out of.
By willingly sacrificing the parts of us that keep returning us there!
@griz people do what they must, as in the end it doesn’t matter when looking at it in the long term, as we’re all fertilizer if given enough time. Having these restrictions on one’s actions actually causes more deaths than saves them. This spirit wants people to be nice and kind to everyone, show love. That gets you nowhere with the way the world is. And no matter what anyone else says, you have to be fully present, alert, aware of the world’s problems, be in the world as it is – not as you want it to be. Doing what you have to helps in this. True, avoid problems when you can… but in a “do or face serious consequences”… do!
@Jear77
Our rise to self conscious awareness as a species is totally predicated upon our ability to see long-term.
There are catastrophes that necessitate the shortening of this outlook for periods of time. But to imagine our entire relatively safe, predictably structured, luxury bathed, war free, extremely mundane everyday common existence as this class of catastrophe is exactly the kind of self-sabotage I mentioned. The kind of nihilism that you allude to is essentially death worship. We are the inheritors of so many great and awesome things and to just want to piss all that up against the wall because there is a natural order to life that you don’t approve of??
How enlarged does one’s head have to be, to take the nihilism excuse seriously? At the very least it takes it absolute deficit of gratitude and humility.
We’ve already discussed that if you want to leave religion behind as useless, leave it behind already. Don’t keep trying to work it into your excuse structure.
We’ve already come to absolute agreement that man-made religion cannot deliver what it claims it can.
@griz there is one huge flaw in that thought process. Say “i will do x” all you want… but the universe may say “no, you won’t, die.” This ever present danger predicates every action, no matter how minute.
@Jear77
The only flaw is ignorance.
Ignorance of what is possible where there is Life.
@griz so you claim to know the day, hour, and minute of your passing? That’s what you’re claiming. Tread carefully…
@Jear77
Knowing exactly would ruin the surprise!
Not to mention tainting the current process.
@griz yet without such knowledge leaves you quite in the dark. And isn’t this Life supposed to be a “light to one’s feet, and a lamp to one’s path?” Elsewhere it says that a “light should not be put under a basket to illuminate the entire room… a city on a hill cannot be hidden.” if these are the types of light it’s supposed to provide, shouldn’t those who are in a relationship with it be given the “inside scoop” for such things? If not, why not?
@Jear77
What is left in the dark, are things I don’t really need to know to make the absolute best shot at life I can in this moment.
As an aside, where do you think you got this notion that everything needs to be a guarantee or hand-out? It’s rather perverse and persistent in almost everything you offer.
Any ideas who planted that toxic seed in you?
In the “lamp to one’s feet” analogy, does a lamp light what is 10 miles or 3 years ahead? Or just the next few steps?
You place the light where it will give the best possible illumination. That it does not absolutely illuminate everything single thing in existence doesn’t diminish it’s intended purpose as a guide and clarifier in the immediate frame of the moment.
Should those you are in fellowship with give you absolutely everything you need that they are capable of?
I would invite you to think more deeply on this question. It is not wise even beyond a mother/infant relationship, because it robs the child of the opportunity to develop competency, rendering them forever reliant upon “mothering”.
It is toxic femininity, as surely as “the evil tyrant” is toxic masculinity.
@griz not so! This lamp can’t guarantee literally even your next step. A person’s heart beats (at rest mind you) 60 beats per minute. You can’t even guarantee that you’re going to be alive a single second from now. Multiply that uncertainty by every minute, by every hour of every day, by every month, by every year. Doesn’t that seem messed up in the slightest? That is a theology based on “it doesn’t matter.” Problem being since we are mortal we need this information to be able to make informed decisions.
@Jear77
It is not the lamp’s job nor anyone else’s to guarantee your next step. And even if its illumination is perfect and absolute In this moment, we can still miss or misinterpret something it reveals. Enter competency.
Examine again the mistaken notion that this is the job of the lamp or anything or anyone else.
What is mistaken is the notion that we need to be toxically mothered unto absolute certainty and safety in every moment.
This is the great evil mother archetype of antiquity, devouring the competency and very Spirit of her offspring.
@griz if i can’t have such guarantees/ perfect clarity, it’s not really worth my time
@Jear77
You just called everything in life not worth your time.
Including the money you seek.
@griz ultimately, it’s not! The moment i die, does money do me any good?
@Jear77
So temporary placation is the best we can hope for?
@griz familiar with mythology? Even if you could take it with you… would Charon take you back across the Styx? And even if he did, your body would still be in the same condition as when you died.
@Jear77
Perhaps.
Are you familiar with the story of Jesus Christ, where his flesh, preserved by the Spirit of Life, knew no corruption?
We are playing with a lot of ideas here that we cannot grasp fully. But that does not mean we cannot grasp this moment far more fully than we might think we can.
My dad’s had a heart attack. I’m heading home but still too many miles away to be of too much use to the family. And I still have a dozen or more job related duties to do before I can be by his side. He’s going into surgery shortly and may not survive.
But I have everything I need in this moment and beyond not just to endure, but to overcome this. And to be useful to multiple people, including you, as this all transpires, however it turns out.
I’m too experienced in death, and now perhaps too well educated to hold to the classic religious dogmatic “hopings” of afterlife that you probably think are the only delusion maintaining me.
But it’s not these delusions that maintain me Body Mind and Spirit. It’s something else, having to do with a fuller participation and fellowship with the very Spirit of LIFE.
(Something you’ve confessed your religious endeavors lacked)
And if he lives I will rejoice in what still is.
And if he doesn’t I will rejoice in what has been and continues to be through me and all the people he’s touched. And rather than be useless with grief, I will offer to deliver his eulogy and play one of his favorite songs on my quena, and be available to those who need help with the transition.
The dead dogmatic religion you experienced doesn’t provide that sort of lamp unto your feet. Only a fuller Spiritual fellowship with Life, intrinsic and extrinsic, does.
I don’t fear death.
I marvel at it.
(Ask me why, and seriously ponder my reply. I dare you!)
@griz this is not any different than literally any other animal species… except for the fact that they don’t have a the want to procreate at a conscious level, as it’s instinct. And if we (or they) don’t do so, our story still doesn’t end there… eventually we will end up as dirt.
@Jear77
Presumptions of omniscience only looks arrogant on humans. We know beyond a doubt what happens to the physical remains. The same as with all animals.
But we have something the rest of the animals do not seem to: conscious awareness of our participation with Life; knowledge of the past and awareness of the future; and awareness of consequence across time. Plus we know how to consciously sacrifice in the present unto a better future.
We have no idea what might happen with these attributes when the physical shell expires. To assert that we do is just arrogance.
And to not make the suitable sacrifices in preparations for such an eventuality, as simple as they are, is to be foolish.
@griz living like there is, esp. under the rules/ guidelines/ strictures of a book, the words of which are 2 millenia old and suspect when one does not have proof, and when the people who are being asked to do so don’t agree with them is equally foolish and arrogant if not more so.
@Jear77
It’s no better to be fatally stuck on a point of book worship, which we’ve covered quite exhaustively before.
Any tool will seem worthless when one misuses it.
@griz it’d make it so much easier if the supposed all-powerful deity actually updated his words and showed people miracles once and awhile and gave his people power to do what they wanted. But i guess that it’s not that important to god to have believers.
@Jear77
We don’t know what importance God puts on “likes”. God is not presented as a pandering parent.
But belief and participation with “transcendent standard” benefits us greatly. That’s time-proven.
The “dead words written on stone” and updated by “the Living Word”. But this seems to have been a foreign concept to the religion you encountered.
There’s not too many “contracts with the future” that massage us in the present like some toxic parent. They almost exclusively involve “proper sacrifice” in the present.
Rare is the investment that pays you before you commit to sacrifice in the present.
@Jear77
No offense but you must have a brain worm.
Why do you keep returning to a book-worship you claim you’d left behind?
@griz book worship from a person willing and able to not only break, but shatter, pulverize, disintegrate the rules lf to show how truly insane and asinine they truly are?
@Jear77
There are many false paths that involve just “relationship” with a rule book.
What is asinine is thinking relationship with/rote obedience to dead rules can lead to better life.
The path you followed seems absolutely bereft of that which revivifies unto life –and resplendent in the aspects that lead to death.
@griz so if life told you to worship other gods, disrespect your parents (assuming that they are alive), kill, steal, commit adultry, covet.. . You’d be forced to obey? Without knowing what’s in the book, you wouldn’t know any better, because tou’d be ignorant of the aforementioned commands. So, either (according to the old joke) the bible is “basic instructions before leaving earth” or it isn’t.
@Jear77
You were lied to by that religion unto a Pharisitical path. Leaders like it because it gives them power. Followers like it because it frees them up from the responsibility of having to think for themselves. They are told exactly what and how to think, and even where not to think.
And if they should fail in any way, they have an archetypical parent to blame and and feed a lifestyle of perpetual anger and resentment with
@griz you avoided the question. I’ll assume you mean yes, you’re able to do literally every forbidden act if commanded.
@Jear77
Religious book-worship is more your albatross than mine. You know I am deeply driven to understand deeper spiritual meanings behind written words and Pharisitical edicts.
Sometimes we pose questions and presume answers of others that would be too painful and revealing if we did them in the mirror.
@griz i told you already, i’ll do what i need to, irrerespective of what it is, and no so called deeper spiritual truth will naysay me, as they are meaningless to me.
@Jear77
So whatever your god told you to do, honorable or not you would do it.
Whereas I would want to understand the true Spirit behind something I was being asked, required or set forth as a high standard.
@griz I have no god I recognize. Even money, which I like, won’t ultimately do me any good in the long run, as I’m mortal.
And honor has nothing to do with survival, In dire straights, in a situation SHTF where it’s you or the other person. Nothing i say has anything to do with what happens in “daily life.”
@Jear77
Everyone has a “high standard” — even if not consciously recognized and even it seems to change from moment to moment. It is usually the same base drive wearing different outfits. Many would be loath to consider it a god, and especially those who have run afoul of organized religion either personally or by proxy.
But it is still held no less religiously.
Our mortality functions just as well as a blessing as it does a curse. Many philosophers and psychologists are brighter than us have have made good argument that it frames meaning more than casting meaning as something worthless or frivolous. Even in literature there is the theme of various Immortals expressing degrees of admiration or envy for human mortality as a framework for purpose and meaning that they can never know.
So why choose curse when we can choose blessing?!
What good is survival if you can’t live with the person who stares back at you from the mirror? If you’ve not read any of Dostoevski’s novels I would highly recommend you do.
If everything we say doesn’t have some bearing on daily life we are living in a fantasy.
Perhaps a dark one that has us believing nothing has any meaning? Such a high standard (god) is a very costly thing indeed. Especially if one does consciously recognize the guiding and defining role it plays in their daily life.
@griz i’ll drown it out by listening to mj’s “man in the mirror”
While i prefer silence, music still holds a place to fill in the gaps when i don’t want to hear “the sound of silence” (another awesome song)
@Jear77
As children we often run and hide from things we don’t know how to deal with.
As adults we often do this for things we would rather not deal with. It’s a valuable short-term coping strategy in some cases. But invariably the things we don’t want to deal with, are exactly the things we most need to deal with — and will be found behind the doors we are most loathe to open. And our subconscious will become increasingly “loud” if we don’t deal with them.
And this spins off into growing incongruities, blocks, phobias, coping ideologies and nihilism, mental disease and nervous breakdown.
@griz or y’know, with the knowledge that my actions, even if i’m the worst person in the world mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. No matter how bad (or great) a person is, few so few will be remembered 10, a hundred, or a thousand generations from now, it doesn’t matter. With that at one’s core truth, coupled with the knowledge that I’m mortal, it can be totally discounted.
@Jear77
As you’ve already acknowledged that pain and suffering In this moment are a terrible thing, wouldn’t any attempt to diminish it by any degree in the now be a worthy goal?
And working to increase it be an unworthy goal?
I’m not sure where the notion of fame 100 Generations from now factors into this. Neither a corpse nor an internal spirit would seem to have much use for ego.
@griz giving up one’s total self, no matter the hurt (given or brought on by others) is infinitely worse.
The King Ahab going to battle problem:
Everyone who is ‘a nobody in this world’ is close to the truth in their deepest, innermost heart. Jesus pointed out that ‘before rushing off to battle, we must first take account of our own resources and the resources of the enemy coming against this’. He repeated this same message more then once in different forms, so you know it is important.
We are all ‘more then conquerors in Christ’. ‘Unlike in this world, in the world to come, those who wish to be first must make themselves last’, that is, we ‘must sit in the lowest seat’.
We are not of this world because our poverty in spirit. But, we are given wealth in the Spirit of God. The world, however, ‘does not accept the message of God’, so we remain rejected in the world.
When the King of the City comes, will we find we have a competing tyrant over us, then? If that King is Jesus, then is Jesus as the kings and lords of this world?
If our brothers and sisters are ‘more then conquerors’, ‘are we not not to at the least kings with our coming King’?
Everyone in our family is competitive. But it is not competitive ‘as in the world, where they lord it over everyone’. Do not be confused, those who claim they are “servants of all” because they “lord it over” all are just playing a mind game you need to win.
We can take for example as kings the terrifying example of King Ahab who opposed God and God’s prophets. As God gave that as an example for us who strive for our place in the world to come.
What happened? King Ahab of Israel had been viewing the prophets as ‘always lying’ to him. When an enemy force was coming against them, he was very concerned. He went to the prophets and sought their advice. This showed he knew they were telling the truth.
What happened can be difficult to keep as it is very spiritual: God sent into the prophets, all seven hundred of them, a lying spirit who told Ahab what he wanted to believe. His subjective truth versus the objective truth. To use your terminology. Ahab was told even all of this, but because he now had two messages he chose to believe the lie.
God shows himself as shrewd to the wicked, but kind to the humble.
This was an example to all of us who wish to be as kings and queens in the world to come.
Do not be like King Ahab.
I do not think you are, but the times are dark. Some have lights that others can see.
Some wear infrared goggles and go “boo” in The Night.
(I one time took in an Angel, who presented himself as a homeless man of potentially dubious repute. I could not perceive him according to his disguise, but I had to perceive him in my own heart.)
(One of my neighbors came to me one morning and exclaimed that he woke up in the middle of the night. He caught someone who had come through his window and was in the room. He was about “so high”. It was my height, but also my roommate’s height. He looked at me, however, and it was clear he thought it might have me, but it was not.)
Lucky he stopped him before he could eat his french fries.