There’s diseases that completely paralyze the body, yet leaving the mind active, yet unable to do anything, mimicking death, yet the person is still alive (below *most* medical equipment’s ability to detect). The reason they find out about these things is usually after a tragic accident where the person is able to gain some mobility, and struggles, but oftentimes by the time they do so, they’ve already perished for real.
@griz most people don’t fear the end so much as they do as loss of self. Loss of mobility. Loss of senses/ sensation. Having to rely on others. Constant pain/ suffering. Death for the old, because they let themselves *get* old is a release. There are others who are busy, alive, active, moving, they don’t have time to die… the young, those at the prime of life – in no system should death be as cheap for those as it is.
@Jear77
In what signficant ways are “loss of self” different from “loss of life”?
I think what we tend to fear the most about actual physical death . . . is that we fear it means the irrevocable loss of the ego. (workable in both Christian and Freudian senses of the word).
Perhaps part of the ego-tragedy we fear . . . is that death doesn’t give a damn whether one has time for it or not! I mean, it doesn’t even bother to schedule and appointment in a lot of cases!
@griz not necessarily. There are those who take perfect care of themselves, visiting the doctor on regular intervals, eating a perfect diet, and exercising *daily* – even death comes to them! There was a study that showed that a chicken heart (or was it a brain?) could basically live forever if placed in a special nutrient solution and if were cleaned daily, it would happily keep pumping (producing bio electricity) This experiment was done for 30 years when one day someone forgot to change the solution. With as little things as free radicals that must build up in these supermen (and women!) you’d think that their levels could be counteracted by diet, exercise and proper rest. Sometimes they die even FASTER than those who don’t.
On the other end of the spectrum you have people who sit around eating junk food, smoking cigarettes, gambling, and having sex with as many partners as possible… and these people live to ripe old ages too! What gives?!
@Jear77
Neither the fear of death, nor the fear of “unfairness” are merciful masters to be trying to carry through life.
A sense of meaningful engagement is the antidote to malevolence and suffering. Life should be so engaging that you feel despite limitations, unfairness and mortality and suffering and the fact that life is tragedy and there’s evil in the world . . . this is WORTH doing. Despite suffering and betrayal, expanding your competence (and teaching others to do the same), makes it all worthwhile.
The goal is to find a way of traversing through life, that is more powerful than all the death, suffering, betrayal, evil etc. It is only then . . . that one knows “Life and Life more abundantly”.
@Jear77
If I was going to give you the multiple billions of dollars you crave . . . would it not make sense that you should have to come to me where I was and follow the conditions of transfer I laid out?
We all find ourselves at times in fallacies where simple exercises of logic and reason become our most intractable foe.
The point of wisdom is to recognize such incongruities and deal with them.
Or at the very least, to not run deeper into them.
@griz not quite. That’s the same ideology that says,we’re irreparably damaged, in need of outside assistance. We’re not. We have more strength than any deity can provide… if we only access it. The human mind uses, what, 10% of its,potential
@griz Not stupid. Untrained. Like a sports star working up to his/ her potential. Or a motivational speaker or fitness coach pushing himself to be better to be able to motivate more. Or perhaps a person like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Or maybe a personal trainer. Or maybe not “or” – perhaps all these things need to be additive. One person who does all that.
@Jear77
So after all these years we are still looking for that person. And our absolute brightest are still only using a fraction of their brain power.
@griz sarcasm does not befit this conversation.
Some gurus do just that.
But not many adherr to their program long term. Sickness, need for rest, a desire to have friends overrides the desire of constant self improvement
@Jear77
Sometimes it’s the best response to something inane.
Don’t you think people have been trying that since the beginning of time? And here we are with things in even worse a mess.
You’re talking about adhering to a long-term program; when the one poke at spirituality that you tried, the one the Bible specifically cautions cannot work . . . didn’t work?
31 responses to “There is something worse than physical death . . .”
Taking a 30 second break from work.
There’s diseases that completely paralyze the body, yet leaving the mind active, yet unable to do anything, mimicking death, yet the person is still alive (below *most* medical equipment’s ability to detect). The reason they find out about these things is usually after a tragic accident where the person is able to gain some mobility, and struggles, but oftentimes by the time they do so, they’ve already perished for real.
@Jear77
The recently-deceased Stephen Hawking comes to mind.
@griz most people don’t fear the end so much as they do as loss of self. Loss of mobility. Loss of senses/ sensation. Having to rely on others. Constant pain/ suffering. Death for the old, because they let themselves *get* old is a release. There are others who are busy, alive, active, moving, they don’t have time to die… the young, those at the prime of life – in no system should death be as cheap for those as it is.
@Jear77
In what signficant ways are “loss of self” different from “loss of life”?
I think what we tend to fear the most about actual physical death . . . is that we fear it means the irrevocable loss of the ego. (workable in both Christian and Freudian senses of the word).
Perhaps part of the ego-tragedy we fear . . . is that death doesn’t give a damn whether one has time for it or not! I mean, it doesn’t even bother to schedule and appointment in a lot of cases!
@griz not necessarily. There are those who take perfect care of themselves, visiting the doctor on regular intervals, eating a perfect diet, and exercising *daily* – even death comes to them! There was a study that showed that a chicken heart (or was it a brain?) could basically live forever if placed in a special nutrient solution and if were cleaned daily, it would happily keep pumping (producing bio electricity) This experiment was done for 30 years when one day someone forgot to change the solution. With as little things as free radicals that must build up in these supermen (and women!) you’d think that their levels could be counteracted by diet, exercise and proper rest. Sometimes they die even FASTER than those who don’t.
On the other end of the spectrum you have people who sit around eating junk food, smoking cigarettes, gambling, and having sex with as many partners as possible… and these people live to ripe old ages too! What gives?!
@Jear77
Neither the fear of death, nor the fear of “unfairness” are merciful masters to be trying to carry through life.
A sense of meaningful engagement is the antidote to malevolence and suffering. Life should be so engaging that you feel despite limitations, unfairness and mortality and suffering and the fact that life is tragedy and there’s evil in the world . . . this is WORTH doing. Despite suffering and betrayal, expanding your competence (and teaching others to do the same), makes it all worthwhile.
The goal is to find a way of traversing through life, that is more powerful than all the death, suffering, betrayal, evil etc. It is only then . . . that one knows “Life and Life more abundantly”.
@griz neither is a master who has exactly one method for salvation/ a good life
@Jear77
If I was going to give you the multiple billions of dollars you crave . . . would it not make sense that you should have to come to me where I was and follow the conditions of transfer I laid out?
We all find ourselves at times in fallacies where simple exercises of logic and reason become our most intractable foe.
The point of wisdom is to recognize such incongruities and deal with them.
Or at the very least, to not run deeper into them.
@griz not necessarily. It could be like “here, this is for you” and leave at that.
@Jear77
So I would have to come to you and bow to your conditions of the transfer?
“The point of wisdom is to recognize such incongruities and deal with them.
Or at the very least, to not run deeper into them.”
@griz why bother? Acceptance of one’s flaws is a much better road.
@Jear77
Why bother with physiotherapy after an injury?
Or if life has dealt you a bad psychological blow, why bother dragging oneself out of depression, despair and/or despondency?
Starting down a “better” road is a good thing.
Not continuing down it, is not.
@griz not quite. That’s the same ideology that says,we’re irreparably damaged, in need of outside assistance. We’re not. We have more strength than any deity can provide… if we only access it. The human mind uses, what, 10% of its,potential
@Jear77
Taking physiotherapy for no reason is almost as bad as not taking it when there is good reason.
So are people just stupid that they use so little of their brain?
Or might we need help to access it?
The line of reasoning you offer seems a lot like saying we don’t need outside help to socialize or to educate.
@griz Not stupid. Untrained. Like a sports star working up to his/ her potential. Or a motivational speaker or fitness coach pushing himself to be better to be able to motivate more. Or perhaps a person like Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Or maybe a personal trainer. Or maybe not “or” – perhaps all these things need to be additive. One person who does all that.
@Jear77
So after all these years we are still looking for that person. And our absolute brightest are still only using a fraction of their brain power.
Maybe we do need outside help?
@griz no. We can do it (ourselves). If we’re willing to make extreme choices. No sleep (or VERY little). EXTREME Exercise. STRICT diet.
@Jear77
That’s brilliant!
I wonder why nobody has thought about that until now?!
@griz sarcasm does not befit this conversation.
Some gurus do just that.
But not many adherr to their program long term. Sickness, need for rest, a desire to have friends overrides the desire of constant self improvement
@Jear77
Sometimes it’s the best response to something inane.
Don’t you think people have been trying that since the beginning of time? And here we are with things in even worse a mess.
You’re talking about adhering to a long-term program; when the one poke at spirituality that you tried, the one the Bible specifically cautions cannot work . . . didn’t work?
@griz one poke? 40 years. When the average person lives ro be 72. And chances are likely, i’ll be dead in 25 years.
@Jear77
So you already have a huge advantage over most Seekers as you know for a fact that religious ideologies don’t work.
(Psst! Although the Bible does tell us that!)
@griz you’re not going to win, because unless i get my billions it’s not worth my time to pursue.
@Jear77
Actually you may be the one who is not going to win in the long run with this attitude and mindset.
@griz my loss then. Not your business.
@Jear77
Technically business has to do with personal profit.
Concern, not so much.
I’ve always considered us more friends than business associates. Let me know if that was a mistaken assumption.
@griz don’t concern yourself.
@griz people like Da Vinchi, Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin
@Jear77
I don’t see a list of people who quit because their first attempt failed.
@griz renaissance men.
@Jear77
None were quitters