Well, what does it mean to be human? Is it opposite of beast? Since animals forgive as well, I think the opposite of “human” is “lower than a beast” because I think we can all agree that humans are capable of doing some things far more evil than any animal could even think of. On the other hand, we have built this fantastic global civilization of mutual support and advancement of arts and sciences – purely for the love of them – that no animal could ever achieve. So we are rarely at the exact same level as beasts. We are either higher than beasts, or lower than beasts. And beasts forgive (anyone who has had a pet would know this).
That being said (and I’m just confuzzling myself here) to be truly human means to be elevated, and if animals can forgive, so should we. To NOT forgive and to, say, wage a war over someone else’s indiscretion, would be an act lower than that of a beast.
As for error – since we do have a nature that is in common with animals, that is, our bodies, I usually attribute it to our physical nature. So common errors and mistakes are more or less at the same level as beasts – neither good nor evil, just unfortunate.
So to sum up – to err is neutral, to forgive is neutral to divine, and to not forgive is lower than neutral. I’d say evil, but we all have our challenges.
I feel like I’ve dug myself into a philosophical hole here and probably making no sense.
@georockstar09 just the messed up nature of the world. Senseless Violence. Tragic loss of lives due to natural disasters. Disease taking people unexpectedly.
@Jear77 So who are you talking about forgiving exactly? Natural disasters and diseases just happen, there’s nothing and no one to forgive, just to overcome feelings of frustration and to adapt.
As for senseless acts of violence, forgive overall, yes, by understanding what lead to that act of violence. HOWEVER, do something about it, make sure it doesn’t happen again, and deliver punishment where punishment is due so that they don’t get it into their minds that they can get away with such things. Seek justice, but not vengeance.
I feel like I’ve been in a discussion about forgiveness on here before, and it didn’t go so well, so I think I might limit some of my personal opinions.
@Jear77 Yeah, I think it’s hard to say “I forgive the universe” when the universe is in charge and it’s simply up to me to either comply, adapt and survive OR get frustrated, blame the universe for being uncomfortable, and die. I’m just talking about the regular, natural world, natural selection, reproduction of the fittest. Life ain’t easy, never was, never will be. I think acceptance is a more appropriate word than forgiveness.
@Jear77
You’ve made such a religious “career” of just extracting the parts of the Bible that feed negativity that you’re not even bothering to complete the full verses now!
You’re ambushing your own efforts. You went looking for a god of self — a “god of your own understanding” . . . and found something you REALLY didn’t like.
(Hint . . . ALL spiritual texts work this way. They magnify the spirit that they are read in)
@griz is wiser than man is the rest. But it’s not as if a careful read (or even NOT so careful one) can’t find mistakes, contradictions, and problems. For a god so incredibly “wise” suchthings would be impossible.
@Jear77
Wisdom is not the property of any person. Nor can any person make it jump through their hoops. One either participates with it or isolates from it: accepts it as offered or rejects it for illusions and delusions of ego.
You struggle for the-god-of-your-own-understanding. It requires you reject the God beyond your understanding. Any seeking becomes self-seeking. Any worship become self-worship. And all service becomes self-service.
The abyss already yawns wide. The spirit in you has asserted that the only purpose for God is to service you.
@Jear77
Partial thoughts (and quotes) are a perverse sort of thing. We pursue them just up to the point where we feel their servicing of our feelings ends. But ignoring the rest of them can make us the worst kind of a fool.
Yes, Jesus came; manifest physically in this realm. He performed astounding service to us of making spiritual fellowship between imperfect and perfect, immature and mature, temporal and eternal, possible. (Something we never could, despite generations of people in possession of the Law, the written word)
And this accomplished, he physically left this realm.
But left the Spirit as birthright to all who accept this very great service. And they who accept this go on, not back into paradigms of servicing just themselves, but of emulating Christ.
Not much flattering can be said of the person who says this is not enough; and wants to be serviced and serviced and serviced over and over and over again.
@griz yet this service can’t do anything in and of itself.
A man starving to death with nothing but God’s word will receive “man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” But eating the bible would provide absolutely no nutritional value .
A person dying of thirst will get “theme who accepts me will never thirst again.” But without actual fluids, the person will still die.
The naked might be able to use the bible’s pages to create an origami pair of underwear. But it in no way can provide protection against the elements. Maybe they’d get “for I was naked and you clothed me” but in this day and age, a naked person will be arrested for indecent exposure.
And this only scratches the surface of the useless amplification you’re talking about.
@Jear77
Of course not! It needs to be “applied” and not just carped about from afar!
If “the physical” is like a “spiritual womb”, things that make the womb-experience “better” have all the benefits of “after-birth”. The womb experience as it currently is not only suffices, it excels at it’s ordained purpose — to introduce life into a new “realm” with great expectation of flourishing.
@griz yet this is the words that will bring life… when it can’t even provide the necessities of life air (well not much can provide air except a SCUBA / air tank so that is a bit unfair, honestly), food/ water, shelter/ clothing,
@Jear77
Lifeforms far less intelligent than us find every necessity they need to not just survive and not just flourish but live in harmony as part of a sustainable system.
Where is the unfairness??
@griz you’re saying the bible (relationship with Life) provides life… yet in and of itself it does not. I can’t eat its pages, drink its ink, use the words to provide me with shelter or clothing. Only AFTER I have these necessary things, does it help at all
@Fletch I am an atheist too… but on the off chance that there is a god (covering all bases here) just saying it’s important to view such a being as imperfect as well (despite such beings usually saying that they’re perfect)
well, I’m not necessarily an atheist, but not a religious person either. I guess the saying was ‘invented’ when everyone was a God-fearing (note G capitalized as to cover all my bases as well ) and devout. At least I think. So doubting the existence of God wasn’t something many people did.
@Fletch
Nice for both parties; though I have observed that it is more for the sake of the forgiver than the forgivee. It is the point at which the one who feels trespassed against, embraces healing.
All true forgiveness is the reaching for a Divine archetype. Even if it’s not currently seen as such.
Someone who exercises (exorcises?) their doubt is always stronger than someone who doesn’t. Religious leaders feared that if people became strong, they might lose their gravy-train control over the masses.
@Jear77
Not everything can fall into our laps on a silver platter.
And often, it’s not in our best interest over time that they do! We (and indeed ALL Life) benefits from process — and stagnates without it.
Also, we sabotage ourselves by limiting the the arena in which “proof” can come to us and what it can look like.
Yet here I am, saying that the proof I found in things “beyond-natural” . . . have played abundantly into the “natural”.
The answer and the breakthrough is right there. If only we would stop self-sabotaging!
You spoke in another thread about “limitations removed”. Perhaps there is provision for us to become a spiritual “one-punch-man”?
@Jear77
My power does not [yet] include giving him a TKO.
But it does include turning anything he can throw at me into a blessing. Imagine if every blow struck against you, made you stronger (consider the Marvel comics villain Sebastian Shaw — the movie-version SORT of captures the same concept, but not well).
@griz not really. Once I started REALLY reading what the bible said, and putting together the consequences of such actions… I realized I could not serve such a being. On top of that there is not enough proof – and we get back to the 72% + 1% above placebo again. EVERYTHING for such a powerful god would have to fall above that point because if not, any numbers are meaningless. So we go back to a god that is so weaksauce that he can’t answer 73% of prayers with an affirmative? Or better yet use all his glory to showcase ALL people who claim to be Christians – whether or not they actually are – to have infinitely better lives? But even THAT fails.
@griz yet the if this were a scenario where a person built a robot that went amuck we would blame the creator for bad programming. We’ve quasi agreed that mankind is a biological robot, which means that the fault lies not in us, sin, or anything like that, it likes squarely on the shoulders of the designers. Were I my own designer I would do things differently… but at day’s end the bible states “we are fearfully and wonderfully made!” If that’s the case there is nowhere else to put the blame, EXCEPT on god!
@griz but once again, we don’t have access to our base code of what makes humanity tick. With it we could probably heal from any wound – no matter how grievous. be cured of any disease, be able to mitigate any mental problems, be able to repair any relationship, completely stop aging at whatever point (maybe even turn back the hands of time). And with this code do this for EVERYONE we meet, whether they will it or no. Those things are only the surface level things, and doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface. And you’re claiming to be able to do this now?
@griz god like? No. Even the best built machines break (down), but the amount of user error that causes discomfort, problems, and eventually death in man is ridiculously small! 3 minutes for air, 3 hours in extreme weather,3 days without water, 3 weeks without food.
@Jear77
I welcome Unity. And participation. And continuance for as long as continuance might last.
I don’t welcome dropping out early, or giving up the climb just because it becomes hard.
Also, one cannot accept life without accepting the inevitable conclusion of it. But like John Wayne, I’m not overly fond of quitting prematurely.
@Jear77
We’ve already discussed this; and I am trusting that you will be forthcoming with me as a friend if you ever do suffer suicidal feelings.
I’m thinking more of the “slow suicide” we come to commit upon ourselves in not recognizing the darker “poisoning” mindsets that can so easily gain a foothold in us — in processes in us that are not already “owned” by the Light.
I think it’s true. I make a lot of mistakes. It can only be attributed to my nature when I look around and see a dominance of similar examples in virtually everyone I see…except my wife who seems to be in touch with some form of divinity. I’m trying to forgive her for that.
I’ve let this question simmer for a bit and now suggest that because of the way this axiom is written, the word err is not as broad in meaning as we might take it. I know I read it as making mistakes in general.
In this context, err may be specific to not being forgiving. We, as selfishly driven entities go to our fallback, non-forgiving nature, unless we make the conscious decision to rise above it and forgive. Divine is above.
To err is human. I might forgive, but not forget that the transgressor is capable of doing whatever they did. It is what it is. I now take precautions to not set up the chances for that person to do it again in my living space. They may do the same to others, but I will be out of reach. I have lost the energy I had about the situation and I have moved on —- and moved away.To forgive might be divine, but to forget might be a huge mistake.
@ladybarbara
I see in the Bible the concept that part of God’s Divinity is not just to forgive, but forget. We are not there; nor perhaps should we be there yet, for the reasons you note.
Someone trespassing against us, “vampires” some of our finite energy away into them. And not forgiving it, sets up a continual “power-tap” — a remote drain on our resources even if the person is not present. Even if they are no longer alive!
Maybe you have not “lost energy” . . . but have simply cauterized off the “bleeder” and are no longer losing energy to them?
46 responses to “to err is human, to forgive divine?”
Interesting question.
Well, what does it mean to be human? Is it opposite of beast? Since animals forgive as well, I think the opposite of “human” is “lower than a beast” because I think we can all agree that humans are capable of doing some things far more evil than any animal could even think of. On the other hand, we have built this fantastic global civilization of mutual support and advancement of arts and sciences – purely for the love of them – that no animal could ever achieve. So we are rarely at the exact same level as beasts. We are either higher than beasts, or lower than beasts. And beasts forgive (anyone who has had a pet would know this).
That being said (and I’m just confuzzling myself here) to be truly human means to be elevated, and if animals can forgive, so should we. To NOT forgive and to, say, wage a war over someone else’s indiscretion, would be an act lower than that of a beast.
As for error – since we do have a nature that is in common with animals, that is, our bodies, I usually attribute it to our physical nature. So common errors and mistakes are more or less at the same level as beasts – neither good nor evil, just unfortunate.
So to sum up – to err is neutral, to forgive is neutral to divine, and to not forgive is lower than neutral. I’d say evil, but we all have our challenges.
I feel like I’ve dug myself into a philosophical hole here and probably making no sense.
SOooo… what brings this up?
@georockstar09 just the messed up nature of the world. Senseless Violence. Tragic loss of lives due to natural disasters. Disease taking people unexpectedly.
@Jear77 So who are you talking about forgiving exactly? Natural disasters and diseases just happen, there’s nothing and no one to forgive, just to overcome feelings of frustration and to adapt.
As for senseless acts of violence, forgive overall, yes, by understanding what lead to that act of violence. HOWEVER, do something about it, make sure it doesn’t happen again, and deliver punishment where punishment is due so that they don’t get it into their minds that they can get away with such things. Seek justice, but not vengeance.
I feel like I’ve been in a discussion about forgiveness on here before, and it didn’t go so well, so I think I might limit some of my personal opinions.
@georockstar09 forgive the system that caused such to be set up… when if there’s something else out there… it needn’t exist as it is.
@Jear77 Yeah, I think it’s hard to say “I forgive the universe” when the universe is in charge and it’s simply up to me to either comply, adapt and survive OR get frustrated, blame the universe for being uncomfortable, and die. I’m just talking about the regular, natural world, natural selection, reproduction of the fittest. Life ain’t easy, never was, never will be. I think acceptance is a more appropriate word than forgiveness.
@Jear77
Interesting is the process that says we are going to forgive the Divine for not being as Divine as us!
@griz Ever read “The foolishness of god…” That verse clearly states that god is foolish!
@Jear77
You’ve made such a religious “career” of just extracting the parts of the Bible that feed negativity that you’re not even bothering to complete the full verses now!
You’re ambushing your own efforts. You went looking for a god of self — a “god of your own understanding” . . . and found something you REALLY didn’t like.
(Hint . . . ALL spiritual texts work this way. They magnify the spirit that they are read in)
@griz is wiser than man is the rest. But it’s not as if a careful read (or even NOT so careful one) can’t find mistakes, contradictions, and problems. For a god so incredibly “wise” suchthings would be impossible.
@Jear77
Wisdom is not the property of any person. Nor can any person make it jump through their hoops. One either participates with it or isolates from it: accepts it as offered or rejects it for illusions and delusions of ego.
You struggle for the-god-of-your-own-understanding. It requires you reject the God beyond your understanding. Any seeking becomes self-seeking. Any worship become self-worship. And all service becomes self-service.
The abyss already yawns wide. The spirit in you has asserted that the only purpose for God is to service you.
@griz I guess you overlook the verse which states: “I come not to be served, but serve…”
@Jear77
Partial thoughts (and quotes) are a perverse sort of thing. We pursue them just up to the point where we feel their servicing of our feelings ends. But ignoring the rest of them can make us the worst kind of a fool.
Yes, Jesus came; manifest physically in this realm. He performed astounding service to us of making spiritual fellowship between imperfect and perfect, immature and mature, temporal and eternal, possible. (Something we never could, despite generations of people in possession of the Law, the written word)
And this accomplished, he physically left this realm.
But left the Spirit as birthright to all who accept this very great service. And they who accept this go on, not back into paradigms of servicing just themselves, but of emulating Christ.
Not much flattering can be said of the person who says this is not enough; and wants to be serviced and serviced and serviced over and over and over again.
@griz yet this service can’t do anything in and of itself.
A man starving to death with nothing but God’s word will receive “man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.” But eating the bible would provide absolutely no nutritional value .
A person dying of thirst will get “theme who accepts me will never thirst again.” But without actual fluids, the person will still die.
The naked might be able to use the bible’s pages to create an origami pair of underwear. But it in no way can provide protection against the elements. Maybe they’d get “for I was naked and you clothed me” but in this day and age, a naked person will be arrested for indecent exposure.
And this only scratches the surface of the useless amplification you’re talking about.
@Jear77
Of course not! It needs to be “applied” and not just carped about from afar!
If “the physical” is like a “spiritual womb”, things that make the womb-experience “better” have all the benefits of “after-birth”. The womb experience as it currently is not only suffices, it excels at it’s ordained purpose — to introduce life into a new “realm” with great expectation of flourishing.
@griz yet this is the words that will bring life… when it can’t even provide the necessities of life air (well not much can provide air except a SCUBA / air tank so that is a bit unfair, honestly), food/ water, shelter/ clothing,
@Jear77
Lifeforms far less intelligent than us find every necessity they need to not just survive and not just flourish but live in harmony as part of a sustainable system.
Where is the unfairness??
@griz you’re saying the bible (relationship with Life) provides life… yet in and of itself it does not. I can’t eat its pages, drink its ink, use the words to provide me with shelter or clothing. Only AFTER I have these necessary things, does it help at all
we all make mistakes. if we an forgive someone else, that’s a nice thing to do
divine? what if I’m an atheist? does that mean your forgiving is better than my forgiving?
@Fletch I am an atheist too… but on the off chance that there is a god (covering all bases here) just saying it’s important to view such a being as imperfect as well (despite such beings usually saying that they’re perfect)
@Jear77
well, I’m not necessarily an atheist, but not a religious person either. I guess the saying was ‘invented’ when everyone was a God-fearing (note G capitalized as to cover all my bases as well
) and devout. At least I think. So doubting the existence of God wasn’t something many people did.
@Fletch
Nice for both parties; though I have observed that it is more for the sake of the forgiver than the forgivee. It is the point at which the one who feels trespassed against, embraces healing.
All true forgiveness is the reaching for a Divine archetype. Even if it’s not currently seen as such.
Someone who exercises (exorcises?) their doubt is always stronger than someone who doesn’t. Religious leaders feared that if people became strong, they might lose their gravy-train control over the masses.
@griz it’d be amazingly easy to exorcise my disbelief! It’s just as if it’s going to happen (realistically)
@Jear77
Not everything can fall into our laps on a silver platter.
And often, it’s not in our best interest over time that they do! We (and indeed ALL Life) benefits from process — and stagnates without it.
Also, we sabotage ourselves by limiting the the arena in which “proof” can come to us and what it can look like.
Yet here I am, saying that the proof I found in things “beyond-natural” . . . have played abundantly into the “natural”.
The answer and the breakthrough is right there. If only we would stop self-sabotaging!
You spoke in another thread about “limitations removed”. Perhaps there is provision for us to become a spiritual “one-punch-man”?
@griz There’s a song. A REALLY bad one “i hit the devil with a TKO”
@Jear77
My power does not [yet] include giving him a TKO.
But it does include turning anything he can throw at me into a blessing. Imagine if every blow struck against you, made you stronger (consider the Marvel comics villain Sebastian Shaw — the movie-version SORT of captures the same concept, but not well).
i feel like to forgive is definitely human, enlightened maybe? but human. to not give a care in the first place might be a divine state
@BelleMadre Why would such a being desire to create anything?
@Jear77 i dont know. brings to light a few conundrums and questions
maybe to share?
@Jear77
Just remember that your impression of the Divine has been hijacked by religion.
@griz not really. Once I started REALLY reading what the bible said, and putting together the consequences of such actions… I realized I could not serve such a being. On top of that there is not enough proof – and we get back to the 72% + 1% above placebo again. EVERYTHING for such a powerful god would have to fall above that point because if not, any numbers are meaningless. So we go back to a god that is so weaksauce that he can’t answer 73% of prayers with an affirmative? Or better yet use all his glory to showcase ALL people who claim to be Christians – whether or not they actually are – to have infinitely better lives? But even THAT fails.
“If at first you don’t succeed, blame it on the parents” — Wacco Warner, Animaniacs.
Children have been trying to blame their failings on their parents since the dawn of time. (It’s far easier than taking responsibility!)
Some grow up.
Some never do.
Usually because they have issues with forgiveness.
So how does lacking a Divine characteristic, make one more Divine than the Divine?
In the creation story the first thing the man and woman did after “falling from Grace”, was to start the blame game.
@griz yet the if this were a scenario where a person built a robot that went amuck we would blame the creator for bad programming. We’ve quasi agreed that mankind is a biological robot, which means that the fault lies not in us, sin, or anything like that, it likes squarely on the shoulders of the designers. Were I my own designer I would do things differently… but at day’s end the bible states “we are fearfully and wonderfully made!” If that’s the case there is nowhere else to put the blame, EXCEPT on god!
@Jear77
Victim of a programming you can do something about??
(And the “doing something about it”, likely being part of an essential lesson. One where the parents cannot do our homework for us!)
@griz but once again, we don’t have access to our base code of what makes humanity tick. With it we could probably heal from any wound – no matter how grievous. be cured of any disease, be able to mitigate any mental problems, be able to repair any relationship, completely stop aging at whatever point (maybe even turn back the hands of time). And with this code do this for EVERYONE we meet, whether they will it or no. Those things are only the surface level things, and doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface. And you’re claiming to be able to do this now?
@Jear77
You seem to be using “absence of total god-like control” . . . as excuse for exercising the control that IS possible.
Is this a valid observation?
@griz god like? No. Even the best built machines break (down), but the amount of user error that causes discomfort, problems, and eventually death in man is ridiculously small! 3 minutes for air, 3 hours in extreme weather,3 days without water, 3 weeks without food.
@Jear77
You are stuck in a logic loop of trying to avoid things rather than overcoming things.
Even unto avoiding life rather than overcoming it. And the fear of death, overshadows any attempts at life.
@griz ok. At death you avoid. I will welcome oblivion
@Jear77
I welcome Unity. And participation. And continuance for as long as continuance might last.
I don’t welcome dropping out early, or giving up the climb just because it becomes hard.
Also, one cannot accept life without accepting the inevitable conclusion of it. But like John Wayne, I’m not overly fond of quitting prematurely.
@griz if you think I am suicidal, you read me completely wrong.
@Jear77
We’ve already discussed this; and I am trusting that you will be forthcoming with me as a friend if you ever do suffer suicidal feelings.
I’m thinking more of the “slow suicide” we come to commit upon ourselves in not recognizing the darker “poisoning” mindsets that can so easily gain a foothold in us — in processes in us that are not already “owned” by the Light.
I think it’s true. I make a lot of mistakes. It can only be attributed to my nature when I look around and see a dominance of similar examples in virtually everyone I see…except my wife who seems to be in touch with some form of divinity. I’m trying to forgive her for that.
I’ve let this question simmer for a bit and now suggest that because of the way this axiom is written, the word err is not as broad in meaning as we might take it. I know I read it as making mistakes in general.
In this context, err may be specific to not being forgiving. We, as selfishly driven entities go to our fallback, non-forgiving nature, unless we make the conscious decision to rise above it and forgive. Divine is above.
*note association with your previous question.
To err is human. I might forgive, but not forget that the transgressor is capable of doing whatever they did. It is what it is. I now take precautions to not set up the chances for that person to do it again in my living space. They may do the same to others, but I will be out of reach. I have lost the energy I had about the situation and I have moved on —- and moved away.To forgive might be divine, but to forget might be a huge mistake.
@ladybarbara
I see in the Bible the concept that part of God’s Divinity is not just to forgive, but forget. We are not there; nor perhaps should we be there yet, for the reasons you note.
Someone trespassing against us, “vampires” some of our finite energy away into them. And not forgiving it, sets up a continual “power-tap” — a remote drain on our resources even if the person is not present. Even if they are no longer alive!
Maybe you have not “lost energy” . . . but have simply cauterized off the “bleeder” and are no longer losing energy to them?
I forgive thee.