@Jear77
Pursuit of Happiness isn’t in the Constitution, it’s in the Declaration of Independence.
“We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness…..”
@luftballooneyegouge Jefferson’s “original Rough draught” is on exhibit in the Library of Congress.[4] This version was used by Julian Boyd to create a transcript of Jefferson’s draft,[5] which reads:
We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; …
The Committee of Five edited Jefferson’s draft. Their version survived further edits by the whole Congress intact, and reads:[6]
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ——
@immortal_pirate
He wrote that and then had his slave empty his chamber pot, or however the mystery of Jefferson’s slave powered plumbingless poo disposal system worked.
For the past 35 years the pursuit of happiness has been directly correlated to the security of my family. Virtually all decisions were based on what is the right thing to do as it relates to their well being.
Its hard to remember what makes ME happy but I have been practicing. One of my favourite things to do is to drive, see new things locally, eat memorable food in memorable places with my wife. I am never sad when I am eating ice cream and apple pie in the Fall IS Heaven. Very little can top that.
I think people exist in misery because that’s their way of saying PLEASE pay attention to me. They are too lazy to plan. Too lazy to execute a plan. So, in an effort to accomplish something, they whine about how hard done by they are and are awarded with attention, not necessarily respect, but attention is attention.
To me, the attainment of happiness is walking down an aisle in a grocery store and knowing i can have anything I want, but having the sense to consider what I need first, then maybe grabbing a bag of M&Ms just because I can.
If happiness is a legal guarantee; you coulda fooled me. Being intoxicated in a public place is against the law. If it could be proven that being drunk makes one happy, they should be off the hook by the fundamental right to be in pursuit of happiness. Somebody is happier stoned out of their mind on meth, or pot, or ecstasy, or Percocets and oxycotin. Isn’t that all an escape from sad and therefore a legitimate pursuit of happiness? I don’t think so. The very nature of laws is that once a behaviour is dictated in words, there will be ways to maneuver around them out of self interest. Billionaires are made that way.
@griz drugs and alcohol are an amplifier for the inner man (or woman). If you’re really and truly a happy person you’ll be happier when taking them, but your external happiness is only a lowering of inhibitions, nothing more. And inhibitions are ALWAYS a good thing! I have problems with “filters” as it is because I have Asperger’s and need to be VERY careful not to do ANYTHING that will remove any of the few filters I have in place lest I say or do something I will regret later on.
@Jear77
Drugs and alcohol, and indeed anything that we give ourselves to, enhances the reaction (the feelings, whether happy or sad)
But it actively works against the pro-action.
They take us from someone achieving greater control of themselves, to someone who is under the control of something else.
I hear you saying that you have a condition where self control is needed. You should find interest in this.
Imagine an existence where pro-action, starts to overshadow and replace reaction.
And with this, peace and joy increase also. This is the very pragmatic side of my relationship with Christ’s Spirit.
I would squeeze through dozens of narrow gates to achieve this!
@griz Keep in mind that your idea of life and mine are completely different. My idea is one that I never have to worry about financial problems because I have enough saved up, have a diversified investment portfolio (including property ownership through a management company) to give me ongoing income, and multiple streams of income.
@griz this is all we have scientific proof of. You’ve still not come up with proof that will hold up in a court, in a lab, or in real life that can be measured.
@griz Measurement is vitally important for ALL aspects of life. Success is in terms of money. If measurement isn’t important, try driving that truck of yours on the measurement labeled “E” that shows how much gas you have left and seeing how far you get. Probably not too far unless the gauge is broken. People following the faith should have amazing lives… oh, that’s right… faith only guarantees problems of being accused falsely, social unacceptance, and the added to that the EXACT same problems as everyone else, including death. And yet even the bible has measurements as to determine how we are doing. That of love? (That’s a song y’know.) That of forgiveness (7 X 70)… which oddly enough isn’t meant to be taken literally. Doesn’t add up from a measurement aspect.
@spitfire3dc
It’s been proven, with the experiment repeated every night, that blatant public intoxication impedes the happiness of greater-numbers more than the blatantly intoxicated.
…..more good ol’ majoritarianism.
@luftballooneyegouge I rarely drink and can impede with extreme efficiency the happiness around me, so it’s not the booze, it’s Forrest’s Mama’s immortal words :Stupid is as stupid does”
@spitfire3dc here’s a bit longer of a response: family is important, i would agree… But the question is whether or not their happiness really equates to your own. As you pointed out, sometimes it is sharing something with them. A saying is that a burden shared is halved, while a joy / happiness shared is multiplied.
You say that having enough to survive off of is a large part of being happy. One of the many reasons I have given up on faith is because I have never been to the point that I can even take care of my own needs at a basic level. There should have been someone to give me a break, but no. I am 40 years old and I can’t get a job other than working with someone who I don’t feel comfortable with. This guy literally threatened to literally kill me multiple times. He apologized repeatedly since, but still jokes about doing so, yet he doesn’t understand why I really don’t want to drop everything to work with him full time. Basically no one who knows the full extent of the situation thinks that it’s safe, sane, or worthwhile to help him out.
@Jear77 I’ll take the time to respond to this, because you took the time to go off on a tangent to your question.
So, let me get this straight, you ask God for a break and when he does’t give you a break, you respond with “You’re BullShit”
People in general are stuck on this premise that words are required for prayer and never get past the “Can you find me a good deal on a set of Michelins?” approach.
Do you think “God” speaks human, let alone English?
A tip. Believe what you want is going to happen. Really believe it. That’s it. That is what real prayer is. Not pretending to believe it, just in case. B-E-L-I-E-V-E.
It’s not as easy as it sounds and the only way to effectively get to the point where you aren’t pretending is with the reinforcement of seeing your belief illustrated.
Tonight, before you go to bed, believe, without words, that you are going to wake up tomorrow morning and when you do wake up express gratitude for that miracle. Believe that you will eat something for lunch and then when that miracle occurs, express gratitude. Start to look at every experience you take for granted and then be grateful for what you have.
Eventually, you can up the stakes, but don’t go too big until you can handle genuine belief in whatever you want.
Grow up. You’re 40. Stop asking Daddy for stuff and stop blaming Him when you are treating Him for not listening to your childish requests. Trust and believe. Be grateful even for the shit you experience and take it for what it is. Experience from which you can choose to grow or whine to many who could care less.
Refer to the biggest miracle when necessary. Somebody stuck his dick in a place that eventually you came out of. You can think, shit and solve problems and all because some jizz fertilized an egg. After your birth EVERYthing is a bonus.
Something else to think about. When Paul the Apostle was imprisoned; he was grateful. It gave him the opportunity to illustrate his faith to his jailers. He saw that as a bonus. He served first and breathed next. We can’t all be as committed as Paul, but his words are still considered after 2,000 years…like he probably believed they would.
@spitfire3dc you know that’s what the bible says to do “ask, seek, knock! Pray without ceasing,” etc. According to the bible, we can’t do ****anything**** in our own strength; it’s impossible. Otherwise the starving people Africa would be able to pick themselves up by the bootstraps.
as far as the future goes, literally every next moment is a thing that can be snatched away from you because we’re mortal. To me, that’s not something to be grateful for; it’s actually the ultimate curse.
There is no legal guaranteed right to “be” happy. It is however a guaranteed right to “pursue” happiness. But ultimately, happiness is a choice. You can chose to be happy or you can chose to not be happy.
One can choose to have joy in this moment regardless of the rollercoaster of emotions. Joy can be present in both happiness and sadness; but does seem to attract a lot of happiness as side effect.
Whereas a lot of people pursue happiness unto death without ever really grasping it. Or if they do it is only for short periods of time; a lot of it spent wondering how long the ride will last.
The process that effectively works to steal one’s joy in this moment.
So yeah: it’s a silly pursuit. I guess that’s why one needs special permission to pursue it as “a right”!
@griz yet i see it’s as a false and ultimately hallow thing. It’s saying things will be all right when you don’t know they will be. It’s saying you’re OK with the loss of your child, or spouse or the diagnosis of a disease, or your job loss or never materializing in the first place. You might be saddened by the realities of famine, war, rape, pollution, divorce, but the joy makes the actual experience that hits home un traumatic. There’s the old poem of the footsteps in the sand… yet there is no proof in the scientific studies to back this idea up.
@Jear77
Things will all be okay when you realize that this is life and not a contract with a guarantee!
There is no scientific proof or guarantee of what life will be. And the sooner that you are reconciled with the Way, the Truth, and the Life the sooner you can start truly living and see that life is truly good and amazing.
Then you will have the proof that you crave. In good measure. Pressed down. Shaken together and running over.
@griz Science does not guarantee even your next moment (or really in fact the current one). Literally as I am typing this I could collapse from something I didn’t know I had and die, unable to be revived. And as I was saying to another user on here THAT reality really and truly not a blessing, something to be thankful for, but the ultimate curse.
@Jear77
If that is all there is then yes it is a curse.
This is the core of Christ’s teachings. Science, religion, or any other human understanding can only lead to a curse.
if you stop there, things really suck!
But Christ went on to say I will make another way, at great personal suffering and sacrifice. But the gate you must pass through is narrow and may involve some work, in sacrifice of things you may think are important in this moment.
Now I don’t know about you, but I would be willing to do and accept quite a bit to to have more than a curse guiding me and awaiting me.
And I would not be so religiously creating constructs of mistake and minutiae to dismiss it.
@griz here’s an analogy: it’s like you’re given $100 bill. That is your life. It’s IMPOSSIBLE to give this gift back without HUGE problems. To me a gift you can’t return is a “White elephant” gift, something that instead of being something that’s good, is instead a burden not only for the person receiving it, but as a ripple effect to everyone around them because the new life needs to be taken care of, nurtured. That’s one of the biggest reasons there’s unwanted pregnancies and abortions.
Getting back to the idea of spending life… You can spend and spend and spend… but you never know when your money is going to run out. You could have spent 9 months in the womb only to die within moments or days of being born. You could live 100+ years and die. Some people get the equivalent to $1 million out of their $100, whereas others get less than a single cent, as the body rejects the egg from being implanted. How can one budget for such a thing? You can’t. Oh, you sometimes can tell someone’s going to die because they’re in a medically induced coma, because few people escape such a thing. Sometimes you know you’ve got (or another person has) a horrid disease that’s always fatal and that there is no cure. And, at day’s end, after the person’s spent the last cent and are gone, there are problems based off of even that. The people are missed. You need to do something with the body. These things spend OTHER’S money (life). All this could have been avoided if mortality were not a thing to begin with.
@Jear77
The single greatest cause of unwanted pregnancies is adults who don’t truly understand what love is, or the commitment involved, before pursuing the fleshly feelings of sex . The easiest way to avoid a burdensome pregnancy, is to not have sex until you are ready for all the responsibilities and consequences that it entails! It’s not rocket science; but it does involve not being Mastered by your feelings and emotions in the moment.
Which comes full circle back to the theme of many of my responses of late.
The problem with that line of reasoning is that life is not a denomination of currency. It is not a business contract.
A gift is a good analogy.
But woe to the person who would grumble and find fault with it. If this is the response to the most amazing gift ever given, they should never again expect anyone to offer them any kind of gift, save they treat it the same contempt. Whether monetary or material, or gifts of time consideration or assistance.
@griz Even with TIME you can’t budget it 100% accurately. And, no gift should have the consequences of “bad use” for lack of a book. No gift should cause the person so accepting it (as you say we all accept it whether we remember it or not) to spend an eternity in hell. That’s not a good gift, that’s not a blessing, it is really and truly a CURSE. To me in order for something to be truly a blessing is this gift would be something that has no ability to be used badly, no ability to waste, no ability to cause or inflict punishment, let alone anything eternal, and certainly not something that impossible to budget within 100% accuracy like you can with money if you plan in advance. And once again, mortality could have been completely avoided from the start, so we wouldn’t be having this conversation to begin with.
@griz The term in Christian communities is “stewardship,” yes? You can’t be a good steward if you don’t know the dimensions of what you’re a stewardship of. One of those dimensions is time. By not having a perfect understanding of how much we have (or lack) the idea is meaningless.
@griz little? If you take all the problems in the world, wrote books on all the individual people, the stories behind the problems, the simple solutions that could have been enacted to eliminate the problems from being in the first place, the potential solutions to the problems that aren’t being enacted… there’s not enough room in the world to contain all said stories. Once again, it goes back to mortality and the fact that it didn’t have to be at all.
@griz I really am not. I am simply pointing out that the god that you worship has too many problems with: scientifically, ethically/ morally, personally, religiously, legally, and much, much more. We humans might exasperate issues… but at day’s end we are bound by only which we can see. And the knowledge we gained at the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is meaningless in the grand scheme of things and for mankind who does not accept salvation to be punished because of such is the height of stupidity.
@griz actually not. The god that you call abba father set this situation up. There’s absolutely no escaping that reality. He’s as guilty as if he did these things himself, by the very fact that he set up a situation knowing 100% that man would fail. He knew it AND planned to sacrifice his son before creation was even in existence. It’s similar to the manufacturer of landmines. They’re going to sell them, not expecting the person who’s bought them not going to be burying them. And if they’ve been buried, they shouldn’t think that people aren’t to be stepping on them because they lay hidden underground. Once again, he could have chosen to set things up any other way. Saying, in essence, you can’t question god because he knows better only makes the problem worse because you can’t see it. Had man initially been blessed with the wisdom of solomon even without the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, that would have been a different story.
@Jear77
The only way life can escape life is in death.
And apparently even the death of our physical shell means little. The “life” that is in you will carry on. This is easy to see once arrogant pride gives up the fantasy that things don’t exist if we cannot attach our preferred “handles” to them.
So spiritual death is the only way to escape Life. And you’re on the way with bells on and thinking yourself wise for it. (Cycle back to arrogant pride, and the key thing that will NOT fit through “the narrow gate”.
This isn’t complicated. Unless foolish pride makes it.
And what was the alleged “original sin”, in Lucifer?? Foolish pride. He said something akin to, “I am going to escape this reality of God’s because it just “doesn’t do it for me anymore”: because he thought he could set it up a better way.
If there is such a thing as the Adversary of Life (lord of death), his fingerprints are all over so many of the things you think will save you and form the basis of your finest defenestrations of Life. You’ve become like a prophet for death.
Is this REALLY what you want? Remember, you have the ability to freely choose.
But the consequences are long-lasting and will reach a point where there’s not “take-backs”.
@Jear77
A continuation. I lost my signal and couldn’t edit/finish response below.
A knowledge of good and evil was necessary so we could freely choose which we would follow.
Evil leads to death, in all its forms. You do seem to think death is your only “birthright” . . . so extrapolate which path you have currently chosen?
But I see in you someone who is fishing for a savior.
You tried a rule-book, and obedience via human agency (just your willpower)
You tried religious works — again a “savior of human agency”.
Then you tried pure logic and rationale — also a savior or human agency — and also found a lot of points that didn’t really stand.
Now you’re trying a savior of science mixed with a savior of money.
Jear! Did Christ factor into any of your trials beyond just reciting an incantation??
Have you ever really known the Spirit of Christ living in you, refining your vision of good and evil? Every indication is that you NEVER relied on ANYTHING but human agency.
And now you’re saying all we have is essentially ‘what we can lay our hands/eyes upon”??
This is just a spiral of desperation; with an end in death that you’ve already conceded.
And all because you couldn’t get to where you wanted to be, via human agency.
@griz everything you’re saying goes back to the topic of smoke and mirrors. Well guess what? This audience member has a cost, a price as it were before he’s about to be happy ignoring the problems with the man behind the curtain.
@Jear77
To me thought, that always seemed to leave a nagging doubt about what would happen should I ever pass through that curtain. It seems a lot like trying to pretend away the grizzly that is sniffing around just beyond the wall of your tent.
It helps to remember that science not being able to prove something, is no proof that it doesn’t exist. There are staggering amounts of historical precedent to show a lot of things that science just wasn’t mature enough to “have a handle” on something yet.
@griz (sighs) I’m simultaneously referring to the famous scene in Wizard of Oz and the stage magician’s assistants who helps with the tricks off stage. Basically I see the mental acrobatics required to retain Christianity. And it’s not worth it without compensation. But I know it won’t happen, which is at the core of the impasse. Familiar with term “moving benchmarks?” My financial benchmarks are moving so fast not even the god of the impossible can keep up!
@immortal_pirate
Any emotion is less a choice than a reaction. We have the right to pursue emotions, but emotions are notorious controllers and limiters of choice.
It’s “nice” to know we have ” the right”. But it is on par with having the right to gargle peanut butter for light your toenails on fire. It’s about as meaningful. (Though the gargling peanut butter might get you mentioned in the Guinness World Book of Records!)
Emotions are the first addiction that we all face: and indeed are at the root of all other addictions. So many people are addicted to things because they are first addicted to their emotions.
Have the emotions. Pursue them if you must.
Just remember that it is good when you have them and bad when they have you.
@griz —–However,—- Even when there are times of unhappiness and something grief-worthy happens, I still look up from my crying and take inventory of what blessings I do have. I am sitting indoors and don’t have to be in the hot sun, or rain. I am wearing clothing and I am comfortable. I am not hungry and food is available. I have a pot to piss in and a hot bath to relax in. Someone on the other side of my breakfast table is thankful that he has me here. I get a Social Security check every month and make it last until the next one. Beyond that, I have a bank account that handles emergencies. I live in a country that gives me the right to pursue happiness, but I just took stock and I am pretty happy right here with my cushy chair and cup of coffee. I am grateful for all things in my life.
Sure, I could have a heart attack. Or, a big giant fly swatter could come out of the sky and give me a swift and mighty swat. I would face that and deal with what happens next. Immortal Pirate calls 911 and soon I am in a stretcher on wheels and going to the hospital ( I have Medicare and Aetna to cover that—– or morgue. If it is the morgue, it is out of my hands.
Life is simple and the pursuit of happiness is simple. Stop and take an inventory of your blessings. Then be grateful. Gratitude is always important.
@ladybarbara
I hear you talking about contentment and gratitude. I see these as different from “pursuit of happiness”.
You have chosen to have these things inside of you regardless of outside circumstances. One doesn’t have to pursue what is already inside of them.
That makes them more closely related to Joy than to happiness in my opinion.
I see a lot of cases in life where the simple use or misuse of words can create pitfalls, or avoid creating them.
I get a lot of good traction in all sorts of slippery terrain, by holding that happiness is reactionary emotion reaching into our personal Kingdom
. . and joy is a pro-actionary choice reaching outwards from our personal Kingdom.
To me the pursuit of happiness is privacy first of all and detailing anything further violates the first.
Privacy is preeminent among qualities in the Pursuit of Happiness.
Happiness is entirely reactionary. So this to me sounds like official permission to be controlled by emotion and outside agency, should one wish it.
Plus happiness is very fleeting. Any number of things beyond your control can cause it or take it away.
I think it was Disney that coined the term “bluebird of happiness”. It was a wise insight, because happiness is very much like a bird. Even if you pursue it”, you never know if it will fly in to sing a song for you or when it will fly away again.
So the right to pursue happiness?
Sure. I guess so. If you like the emotional rollercoaster and the disappointment when it’s over.
But it seems to me as silly as celebrating the right to gargle peanut butter or light one’s toenails on fire.
63 responses to “What does the “pursuit of happiness” look like to you?”
“legally guaranteed right”? says who?
misery loves company
@Fletch at least in America… says the US Constitution
@Jear77 true. but it’s a pretty grey area
@Jear77
Pursuit of Happiness isn’t in the Constitution, it’s in the Declaration of Independence.
“We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness…..”
…not grey at all.
@luftballooneyegouge Jefferson’s “original Rough draught” is on exhibit in the Library of Congress.[4] This version was used by Julian Boyd to create a transcript of Jefferson’s draft,[5] which reads:
We hold these truths to be sacred & undeniable; that all men are created equal & independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent & inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, & liberty, & the pursuit of happiness; …
The Committee of Five edited Jefferson’s draft. Their version survived further edits by the whole Congress intact, and reads:[6]
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ——
@immortal_pirate
He wrote that and then had his slave empty his chamber pot, or however the mystery of Jefferson’s slave powered plumbingless poo disposal system worked.
For the past 35 years the pursuit of happiness has been directly correlated to the security of my family. Virtually all decisions were based on what is the right thing to do as it relates to their well being.
Its hard to remember what makes ME happy but I have been practicing. One of my favourite things to do is to drive, see new things locally, eat memorable food in memorable places with my wife. I am never sad when I am eating ice cream and apple pie in the Fall IS Heaven. Very little can top that.
I think people exist in misery because that’s their way of saying PLEASE pay attention to me. They are too lazy to plan. Too lazy to execute a plan. So, in an effort to accomplish something, they whine about how hard done by they are and are awarded with attention, not necessarily respect, but attention is attention.
To me, the attainment of happiness is walking down an aisle in a grocery store and knowing i can have anything I want, but having the sense to consider what I need first, then maybe grabbing a bag of M&Ms just because I can.
If happiness is a legal guarantee; you coulda fooled me. Being intoxicated in a public place is against the law. If it could be proven that being drunk makes one happy, they should be off the hook by the fundamental right to be in pursuit of happiness. Somebody is happier stoned out of their mind on meth, or pot, or ecstasy, or Percocets and oxycotin. Isn’t that all an escape from sad and therefore a legitimate pursuit of happiness? I don’t think so. The very nature of laws is that once a behaviour is dictated in words, there will be ways to maneuver around them out of self interest. Billionaires are made that way.
@spitfire3dc Actually the only thing that drunkenness guarantees is the increase of stupidity.
So after all that detail, you focus on drunks are stupid? Have you been drinking?
@spitfire3dc I was going for a “twitter” answer :-P
@Jear77
But one is happy in it!
I mean, well, if happiness is the goal, the Nirvana, the Holy Grail one seeks . . .
( you see where this is going?)
@griz drugs and alcohol are an amplifier for the inner man (or woman). If you’re really and truly a happy person you’ll be happier when taking them, but your external happiness is only a lowering of inhibitions, nothing more. And inhibitions are ALWAYS a good thing! I have problems with “filters” as it is because I have Asperger’s and need to be VERY careful not to do ANYTHING that will remove any of the few filters I have in place lest I say or do something I will regret later on.
@Jear77
Drugs and alcohol, and indeed anything that we give ourselves to, enhances the reaction (the feelings, whether happy or sad)
But it actively works against the pro-action.
They take us from someone achieving greater control of themselves, to someone who is under the control of something else.
I hear you saying that you have a condition where self control is needed. You should find interest in this.
Imagine an existence where pro-action, starts to overshadow and replace reaction.
And with this, peace and joy increase also. This is the very pragmatic side of my relationship with Christ’s Spirit.
I would squeeze through dozens of narrow gates to achieve this!
@griz Keep in mind that your idea of life and mine are completely different. My idea is one that I never have to worry about financial problems because I have enough saved up, have a diversified investment portfolio (including property ownership through a management company) to give me ongoing income, and multiple streams of income.
@Jear77
You see life as made of things temporary and external. That means destitution is guaranteed.
@griz Didn’t Steve Jobs (y’know the guy who founded this company called Apple?) die rich?
@Jear77
So you think life is about accumulating stuff you can’t take with you.
No wonder you’re so frustrated.
@griz this is all we have scientific proof of. You’ve still not come up with proof that will hold up in a court, in a lab, or in real life that can be measured.
@Jear77
Again with the worship of science as some kind of Almighty??
You are looking for someone to spoon-feed you pablum.
@griz Measurement is vitally important for ALL aspects of life. Success is in terms of money. If measurement isn’t important, try driving that truck of yours on the measurement labeled “E” that shows how much gas you have left and seeing how far you get. Probably not too far unless the gauge is broken. People following the faith should have amazing lives… oh, that’s right… faith only guarantees problems of being accused falsely, social unacceptance, and the added to that the EXACT same problems as everyone else, including death. And yet even the bible has measurements as to determine how we are doing. That of love? (That’s a song y’know.) That of forgiveness (7 X 70)… which oddly enough isn’t meant to be taken literally. Doesn’t add up from a measurement aspect.
@spitfire3dc
It’s been proven, with the experiment repeated every night, that blatant public intoxication impedes the happiness of greater-numbers more than the blatantly intoxicated.
…..more good ol’ majoritarianism.
@luftballooneyegouge I rarely drink and can impede with extreme efficiency the happiness around me, so it’s not the booze, it’s Forrest’s Mama’s immortal words :Stupid is as stupid does”
@spitfire3dc
…..can’t escape stupid.
…..not from others.
….nefer from ovrselves.
@spitfire3dc here’s a bit longer of a response: family is important, i would agree… But the question is whether or not their happiness really equates to your own. As you pointed out, sometimes it is sharing something with them. A saying is that a burden shared is halved, while a joy / happiness shared is multiplied.
You say that having enough to survive off of is a large part of being happy. One of the many reasons I have given up on faith is because I have never been to the point that I can even take care of my own needs at a basic level. There should have been someone to give me a break, but no. I am 40 years old and I can’t get a job other than working with someone who I don’t feel comfortable with. This guy literally threatened to literally kill me multiple times. He apologized repeatedly since, but still jokes about doing so, yet he doesn’t understand why I really don’t want to drop everything to work with him full time. Basically no one who knows the full extent of the situation thinks that it’s safe, sane, or worthwhile to help him out.
@Jear77 I’ll take the time to respond to this, because you took the time to go off on a tangent to your question.
So, let me get this straight, you ask God for a break and when he does’t give you a break, you respond with “You’re BullShit”
People in general are stuck on this premise that words are required for prayer and never get past the “Can you find me a good deal on a set of Michelins?” approach.
Do you think “God” speaks human, let alone English?
A tip. Believe what you want is going to happen. Really believe it. That’s it. That is what real prayer is. Not pretending to believe it, just in case. B-E-L-I-E-V-E.
It’s not as easy as it sounds and the only way to effectively get to the point where you aren’t pretending is with the reinforcement of seeing your belief illustrated.
Tonight, before you go to bed, believe, without words, that you are going to wake up tomorrow morning and when you do wake up express gratitude for that miracle. Believe that you will eat something for lunch and then when that miracle occurs, express gratitude. Start to look at every experience you take for granted and then be grateful for what you have.
Eventually, you can up the stakes, but don’t go too big until you can handle genuine belief in whatever you want.
Grow up. You’re 40. Stop asking Daddy for stuff and stop blaming Him when you are treating Him for not listening to your childish requests. Trust and believe. Be grateful even for the shit you experience and take it for what it is. Experience from which you can choose to grow or whine to many who could care less.
Refer to the biggest miracle when necessary. Somebody stuck his dick in a place that eventually you came out of. You can think, shit and solve problems and all because some jizz fertilized an egg. After your birth EVERYthing is a bonus.
Something else to think about. When Paul the Apostle was imprisoned; he was grateful. It gave him the opportunity to illustrate his faith to his jailers. He saw that as a bonus. He served first and breathed next. We can’t all be as committed as Paul, but his words are still considered after 2,000 years…like he probably believed they would.
@spitfire3dc you know that’s what the bible says to do “ask, seek, knock! Pray without ceasing,” etc. According to the bible, we can’t do ****anything**** in our own strength; it’s impossible. Otherwise the starving people Africa would be able to pick themselves up by the bootstraps.
as far as the future goes, literally every next moment is a thing that can be snatched away from you because we’re mortal. To me, that’s not something to be grateful for; it’s actually the ultimate curse.
@spitfire3dc It is the right to pursue or seek happiness that is being referred to, not a guarantee of attaining it.
@zuul Gee thanks zuul. Where would I be without your uncanny skills as an interpreter???
There is no legal guaranteed right to “be” happy. It is however a guaranteed right to “pursue” happiness. But ultimately, happiness is a choice. You can chose to be happy or you can chose to not be happy.
@immortal_pirate but why would many choose not to pursue it?
@Jear77 They would rather play the “poor pitiful me” game of self imposed victim-hood.
@immortal_pirate I may not get, but I pursue aplenty!
@Jear77
This, to me, is why joy beats happiness.
One can choose to have joy in this moment regardless of the rollercoaster of emotions. Joy can be present in both happiness and sadness; but does seem to attract a lot of happiness as side effect.
Whereas a lot of people pursue happiness unto death without ever really grasping it. Or if they do it is only for short periods of time; a lot of it spent wondering how long the ride will last.
The process that effectively works to steal one’s joy in this moment.
So yeah: it’s a silly pursuit. I guess that’s why one needs special permission to pursue it as “a right”!
@griz yet i see it’s as a false and ultimately hallow thing. It’s saying things will be all right when you don’t know they will be. It’s saying you’re OK with the loss of your child, or spouse or the diagnosis of a disease, or your job loss or never materializing in the first place. You might be saddened by the realities of famine, war, rape, pollution, divorce, but the joy makes the actual experience that hits home un traumatic. There’s the old poem of the footsteps in the sand… yet there is no proof in the scientific studies to back this idea up.
@Jear77
Things will all be okay when you realize that this is life and not a contract with a guarantee!
There is no scientific proof or guarantee of what life will be. And the sooner that you are reconciled with the Way, the Truth, and the Life the sooner you can start truly living and see that life is truly good and amazing.
Then you will have the proof that you crave. In good measure. Pressed down. Shaken together and running over.
These are not just christianese buzzwords.
@griz Science does not guarantee even your next moment (or really in fact the current one). Literally as I am typing this I could collapse from something I didn’t know I had and die, unable to be revived. And as I was saying to another user on here THAT reality really and truly not a blessing, something to be thankful for, but the ultimate curse.
@Jear77
If that is all there is then yes it is a curse.
This is the core of Christ’s teachings. Science, religion, or any other human understanding can only lead to a curse.
if you stop there, things really suck!
But Christ went on to say I will make another way, at great personal suffering and sacrifice. But the gate you must pass through is narrow and may involve some work, in sacrifice of things you may think are important in this moment.
Now I don’t know about you, but I would be willing to do and accept quite a bit to to have more than a curse guiding me and awaiting me.
And I would not be so religiously creating constructs of mistake and minutiae to dismiss it.
@griz here’s an analogy: it’s like you’re given $100 bill. That is your life. It’s IMPOSSIBLE to give this gift back without HUGE problems. To me a gift you can’t return is a “White elephant” gift, something that instead of being something that’s good, is instead a burden not only for the person receiving it, but as a ripple effect to everyone around them because the new life needs to be taken care of, nurtured. That’s one of the biggest reasons there’s unwanted pregnancies and abortions.
Getting back to the idea of spending life… You can spend and spend and spend… but you never know when your money is going to run out. You could have spent 9 months in the womb only to die within moments or days of being born. You could live 100+ years and die. Some people get the equivalent to $1 million out of their $100, whereas others get less than a single cent, as the body rejects the egg from being implanted. How can one budget for such a thing? You can’t. Oh, you sometimes can tell someone’s going to die because they’re in a medically induced coma, because few people escape such a thing. Sometimes you know you’ve got (or another person has) a horrid disease that’s always fatal and that there is no cure. And, at day’s end, after the person’s spent the last cent and are gone, there are problems based off of even that. The people are missed. You need to do something with the body. These things spend OTHER’S money (life). All this could have been avoided if mortality were not a thing to begin with.
@Jear77
The single greatest cause of unwanted pregnancies is adults who don’t truly understand what love is, or the commitment involved, before pursuing the fleshly feelings of sex . The easiest way to avoid a burdensome pregnancy, is to not have sex until you are ready for all the responsibilities and consequences that it entails! It’s not rocket science; but it does involve not being Mastered by your feelings and emotions in the moment.
Which comes full circle back to the theme of many of my responses of late.
The problem with that line of reasoning is that life is not a denomination of currency. It is not a business contract.
A gift is a good analogy.
But woe to the person who would grumble and find fault with it. If this is the response to the most amazing gift ever given, they should never again expect anyone to offer them any kind of gift, save they treat it the same contempt. Whether monetary or material, or gifts of time consideration or assistance.
@griz Even with TIME you can’t budget it 100% accurately. And, no gift should have the consequences of “bad use” for lack of a book. No gift should cause the person so accepting it (as you say we all accept it whether we remember it or not) to spend an eternity in hell. That’s not a good gift, that’s not a blessing, it is really and truly a CURSE. To me in order for something to be truly a blessing is this gift would be something that has no ability to be used badly, no ability to waste, no ability to cause or inflict punishment, let alone anything eternal, and certainly not something that impossible to budget within 100% accuracy like you can with money if you plan in advance. And once again, mortality could have been completely avoided from the start, so we wouldn’t be having this conversation to begin with.
@Jear77
You are the last man I expected to be trying to budget something he cannot physically lay his hands upon!
Time is time, the same as Life Is Life. You can try to control and save and budget it.
But only if you truly love frustration and disappointment.
@griz The term in Christian communities is “stewardship,” yes? You can’t be a good steward if you don’t know the dimensions of what you’re a stewardship of. One of those dimensions is time. By not having a perfect understanding of how much we have (or lack) the idea is meaningless.
@Jear77
It’s like a bad episode of Judge Judy has possessed you!
You are desperately searching for all these little legal loopholes; and in trying to justify something that no court is big enough to contain.
The whole core of the issue may be that you are wanting God to be beholding to Man. And when it doesn’t happen you’re going to sue!
@griz little? If you take all the problems in the world, wrote books on all the individual people, the stories behind the problems, the simple solutions that could have been enacted to eliminate the problems from being in the first place, the potential solutions to the problems that aren’t being enacted… there’s not enough room in the world to contain all said stories. Once again, it goes back to mortality and the fact that it didn’t have to be at all.
@Jear77
Only one man has been able to shoulder all of the pain and suffering of the whole world.
Why are you trying to?
@griz I really am not. I am simply pointing out that the god that you worship has too many problems with: scientifically, ethically/ morally, personally, religiously, legally, and much, much more. We humans might exasperate issues… but at day’s end we are bound by only which we can see. And the knowledge we gained at the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is meaningless in the grand scheme of things and for mankind who does not accept salvation to be punished because of such is the height of stupidity.
@Jear77
Change that around to the god you tried to worship.
When you speak of him I don’t recognize him is the same one I call Abba, Father.
More often than not you seem to be speaking of the antithesis of the One I worship.
And because religion is a construct of Man who is naturally owned by death, are we surprised?
You need to decide if you are going to worship God; or just Man and his constructs. Like religion you spent years at
@griz actually not. The god that you call abba father set this situation up. There’s absolutely no escaping that reality. He’s as guilty as if he did these things himself, by the very fact that he set up a situation knowing 100% that man would fail. He knew it AND planned to sacrifice his son before creation was even in existence. It’s similar to the manufacturer of landmines. They’re going to sell them, not expecting the person who’s bought them not going to be burying them. And if they’ve been buried, they shouldn’t think that people aren’t to be stepping on them because they lay hidden underground. Once again, he could have chosen to set things up any other way. Saying, in essence, you can’t question god because he knows better only makes the problem worse because you can’t see it. Had man initially been blessed with the wisdom of solomon even without the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, that would have been a different story.
@Jear77
The only way life can escape life is in death.
And apparently even the death of our physical shell means little. The “life” that is in you will carry on. This is easy to see once arrogant pride gives up the fantasy that things don’t exist if we cannot attach our preferred “handles” to them.
So spiritual death is the only way to escape Life. And you’re on the way with bells on and thinking yourself wise for it. (Cycle back to arrogant pride, and the key thing that will NOT fit through “the narrow gate”.
This isn’t complicated. Unless foolish pride makes it.
And what was the alleged “original sin”, in Lucifer?? Foolish pride. He said something akin to, “I am going to escape this reality of God’s because it just “doesn’t do it for me anymore”: because he thought he could set it up a better way.
If there is such a thing as the Adversary of Life (lord of death), his fingerprints are all over so many of the things you think will save you and form the basis of your finest defenestrations of Life. You’ve become like a prophet for death.
Is this REALLY what you want? Remember, you have the ability to freely choose.
But the consequences are long-lasting and will reach a point where there’s not “take-backs”.
@Jear77
A continuation. I lost my signal and couldn’t edit/finish response below.
A knowledge of good and evil was necessary so we could freely choose which we would follow.
Evil leads to death, in all its forms. You do seem to think death is your only “birthright” . . . so extrapolate which path you have currently chosen?
But I see in you someone who is fishing for a savior.
You tried a rule-book, and obedience via human agency (just your willpower)
You tried religious works — again a “savior of human agency”.
Then you tried pure logic and rationale — also a savior or human agency — and also found a lot of points that didn’t really stand.
Now you’re trying a savior of science mixed with a savior of money.
Jear! Did Christ factor into any of your trials beyond just reciting an incantation??
Have you ever really known the Spirit of Christ living in you, refining your vision of good and evil? Every indication is that you NEVER relied on ANYTHING but human agency.
And now you’re saying all we have is essentially ‘what we can lay our hands/eyes upon”??
This is just a spiral of desperation; with an end in death that you’ve already conceded.
And all because you couldn’t get to where you wanted to be, via human agency.
@griz everything you’re saying goes back to the topic of smoke and mirrors. Well guess what? This audience member has a cost, a price as it were before he’s about to be happy ignoring the problems with the man behind the curtain.
@Jear77
To me thought, that always seemed to leave a nagging doubt about what would happen should I ever pass through that curtain. It seems a lot like trying to pretend away the grizzly that is sniffing around just beyond the wall of your tent.
It helps to remember that science not being able to prove something, is no proof that it doesn’t exist. There are staggering amounts of historical precedent to show a lot of things that science just wasn’t mature enough to “have a handle” on something yet.
@griz (sighs) I’m simultaneously referring to the famous scene in Wizard of Oz and the stage magician’s assistants who helps with the tricks off stage. Basically I see the mental acrobatics required to retain Christianity. And it’s not worth it without compensation. But I know it won’t happen, which is at the core of the impasse. Familiar with term “moving benchmarks?” My financial benchmarks are moving so fast not even the god of the impossible can keep up!
@immortal_pirate
Reinforcing one’s victimhood long after the fact . . . is “trending” right now!
@immortal_pirate
Any emotion is less a choice than a reaction. We have the right to pursue emotions, but emotions are notorious controllers and limiters of choice.
It’s “nice” to know we have ” the right”. But it is on par with having the right to gargle peanut butter for light your toenails on fire. It’s about as meaningful. (Though the gargling peanut butter might get you mentioned in the Guinness World Book of Records!)
Emotions are the first addiction that we all face: and indeed are at the root of all other addictions. So many people are addicted to things because they are first addicted to their emotions.
Have the emotions. Pursue them if you must.
Just remember that it is good when you have them and bad when they have you.
The right to pursue happiness. The right to secure my home life in a way that is comfortable and makes me happy.
@ladybarbara
I think you have got it right then outside things “”make”” us happy. They trigger the emotion.
But it is a precarious and unpredictable place to be; because things can just as easily come along to make us unhappy.
@griz —–However,—- Even when there are times of unhappiness and something grief-worthy happens, I still look up from my crying and take inventory of what blessings I do have. I am sitting indoors and don’t have to be in the hot sun, or rain. I am wearing clothing and I am comfortable. I am not hungry and food is available. I have a pot to piss in and a hot bath to relax in. Someone on the other side of my breakfast table is thankful that he has me here. I get a Social Security check every month and make it last until the next one. Beyond that, I have a bank account that handles emergencies. I live in a country that gives me the right to pursue happiness, but I just took stock and I am pretty happy right here with my cushy chair and cup of coffee. I am grateful for all things in my life.
Sure, I could have a heart attack. Or, a big giant fly swatter could come out of the sky and give me a swift and mighty swat. I would face that and deal with what happens next. Immortal Pirate calls 911 and soon I am in a stretcher on wheels and going to the hospital ( I have Medicare and Aetna to cover that—– or morgue. If it is the morgue, it is out of my hands.
Life is simple and the pursuit of happiness is simple. Stop and take an inventory of your blessings. Then be grateful. Gratitude is always important.
@ladybarbara
I hear you talking about contentment and gratitude. I see these as different from “pursuit of happiness”.
You have chosen to have these things inside of you regardless of outside circumstances. One doesn’t have to pursue what is already inside of them.
That makes them more closely related to Joy than to happiness in my opinion.
I see a lot of cases in life where the simple use or misuse of words can create pitfalls, or avoid creating them.
I get a lot of good traction in all sorts of slippery terrain, by holding that happiness is reactionary emotion reaching into our personal Kingdom
. . and joy is a pro-actionary choice reaching outwards from our personal Kingdom.
http://constitutionus.com/
To me the pursuit of happiness is privacy first of all and detailing anything further violates the first.
Privacy is preeminent among qualities in the Pursuit of Happiness.
Happiness is entirely reactionary. So this to me sounds like official permission to be controlled by emotion and outside agency, should one wish it.
Plus happiness is very fleeting. Any number of things beyond your control can cause it or take it away.
I think it was Disney that coined the term “bluebird of happiness”. It was a wise insight, because happiness is very much like a bird. Even if you pursue it”, you never know if it will fly in to sing a song for you or when it will fly away again.
So the right to pursue happiness?
Sure. I guess so. If you like the emotional rollercoaster and the disappointment when it’s over.
But it seems to me as silly as celebrating the right to gargle peanut butter or light one’s toenails on fire.
@griz Older. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluebird_of_happiness