Social justice progresses, it then receives a push back. It happens and probably will always happen. I get that there are some aspects that maybe are nonissue that some liberals/progressives take a little too far, but social justice in general is very important. Unless world leaders (one in particular) do something crazy, I don’t think this will be a permanent setback. It’s just odd to me that it is this hard to push for equality, empathy, and nonviolent justice. We have come so far from where we originally were. I have to assume that we can progress even further if given the time. There may be roadblocks or entire walls that block us from it, but they will most likely go the way of the Berlin Wall.
@yin What do you think about the way ideology influences social justice or lack thereof? What, in your opinion, would be the best way to penetrate ideology that decreases the likelihood of an increase in social justice) or, can it be penetrated?
@Scarlett I typed out a whole thing but deleted it. Didn’t feel comfortable with it. Your question though, are you basically asking what would be a way to stop people from making roadblocks to social justice? I read it like that. I think my answer is just about the same as it is with most other things. Education. We need better systems of education and we need to help poor people better. When our education rises and living conditions better, I believe we will be more understanding and be more peaceful towards one another. My original response went into private and home school and whatnot, but I didn’t feel comfortable speaking about it since I don’t know much about it. Just odd that we separate kids like that and are surprised when their education and social experiences differ so greatly.
@yin I agree with what you say about education being a starting point. I think it would be a huge step to begin to educate kids about critical thinking earlier on.
When it comes to the confederate statues being taken down, do you think this would work as a symbol for kids today, to say, “this is who we were, but we are not they anymore.”?
@Scarlett If we teach younger kids why we are removing them? I believe it could. We can’t keep them up and say that. We can’t say we are no longer these people while we are still glorifying these people. We need to celebrate those that liberated slaves and honor those that were terribly unfortunate to have been victimized by the Confederates.
I kind of went on a longer rant, but I feel that this topic itself wasn’t what you asked so I cut it. But yes, I really do feel that this could be a great time to teach kids that we are no longer that and that we must be better than those that came before us. It isn’t to remove or erase history. It is to be able to teach it responsibly.
@griz Man, I typed a thing, posted, and then it said I wasn’t logged in so I lost it. The highlights I guess: I am a big fan of Aaron Jackson of Planting Peace and Equality House. He bought a house across the street to the Westboro Baptist Church and painted it rainbow. He is nothing but pleasant to them. Someone also bought the house next that that and painted it the transgender pride flag colors. One of the WBC kids that I know of even left the church and is helping Aaron with Planting Peace. I totally respect what he does. I can see how it can be potentially dangerous though. Overall, I’m not sure what the most effective way is. I just know that education is a must and being as peaceful as possible while standing firm with the message of social justice is important.
@yin
I like how your responses invite me to think! To me, this is the heart of learning.
“Education” is just the institution we invented seeking to formalize, standardize, and control not just the process . . . but minds as well. (Consider the fine line between education and indoctrination).
The path to unity, peace and respect is not found while perusing disrespect, contention and adversarial segregation.
This invites us to reconsider the tactic of erecting “an opposing stronghold” right across the street from an existing one.
While I appreciate the irony of such a move, nobody is really holding the high ground here (ethically or tactically). Do you think this is going to weaken or strengthen the wb’s resolve?
It’s all still tit for tat warfare, with the added insult of proselytizing one of their children away. This is the spirit of contention and conflict; not the spirit of peace.
The answer is going to have to be something different: not just more of the same tactic played differently by opposing sides.
@griz Sorry for waiting so long to respond to this. I was having some trouble comprehending (my personal problem, not your post) and just ignored for a while.
I agree that there is a fine line. I feel that the problem is people thinking that science is indoctrination. Or that questioning religions is indoctrination. Or sexual education. I mean, we have people that think the Earth is flat, in 2017. I am totally for questioning everything, but that conclusion seems… off.
I’m not sure I’d call it an opposing stronghold. One side literally protested the funerals of killed soldiers. The other is welcoming to all, including those across the street. I also haven’t heard much of the WBC as of late. Not sure if the Equality House or Anonymous did that though. I just know that they seemingly stopped what they were doing for the most part. The man who created the church, Fred Phelps, was said to even have been excommunicated himself due to his change of heart and his support of the people at the Equality House. If they want to disown their family for choosing acceptance, that is on them. I don’t think just letting them exist as they were with no other message in site was working though. I can’t be mad at a more accepting message that may sway the opinions of some of those that are less accepting across the street. If the Equality House was a(n) *insert other religion here* version of the WBC, I’d be willing to agree. I just can’t equate the two currently.
Let MJ know about your lost response. The input buffer used to hold your response even if you were navigated away from that screen; waiting to clear it until you opened the input buffer on a different thread. It would be nice to restore that function.
Like you, I’m not wise enough to say what the best way is. But I am wise enough to observe that even a clever retaliatory response rarely is as good as it seems at the time.
Education is a good and essential thing. Education with a cattle prod, not so much! (A rainbow house across the road and “stealing” one of their young people does considerable prodding! It will most likely have a rebound effect.)
I’m not a big fan of doing better than someone else, by doing essentially the same thing they did!
Which is less a strike against Aaron or Planting Peace, as an invite to consider more effective tactics then just racking up “likes”.
@griz I don’t see how it can be seen as stealing their young at all. If the WBC sees it that way and retaliates, that is all on them. I am sure MLK and others marching down the street was seen as prodding too, but it needed to happen. Now, I’m not actually trying to compare Planting Peace with MLK, but blatantly doing good deeds in front of those that despise you shouldn’t be seen as prodding.
@yin
Consider how ingrained subjective thinking is in Humanity. So very often something is “not what it is, but what it looks/feels like”.
I was for a moment, “channeling” (lol) the WBC’s. I have no doubt they see only skullduggery and theft of their young people by them devilin’ gays! This will NOT be taken as educational but rather as incontrovertable proof . . . that their continued (and accelerated?)actions against GBLT’s are justified.
Hence, the “rebound effect”.
So then we’re left pondering whether an action that enables and empowers fallacious thinking, is truly a good deed? (Sort of like buying a “Whiskey-of-the-month” membership for a confirmed alcoholic).
Again, I’m not trying to “demonize” a person or their actions. I’m simply looking at this as lesson in human nature — and particularly human nature when WE are “shouting” (in words or actions) that WE are right (and others are wrong!).
Any learning and change will have to somehow exceed these ego-Olympics we so love to play! Some battles need to be fought. But in too many cases the path to peace is not “winning” . . . but in refusing to endorse and support the battle by upping the ante in the first place.
@griz I guess, if that is how you want to look at it. I just can’t see where there is a fault for a peaceful showing of unity across the street of the WBC. I can’t see where consenting adults living how they want could be considered wrong. I mean, if one side HAS to be right and one wrong, I think the ones accepting others living how they choose is on the right side. Could denying them how they want to live be considered right? Without religion? I also don’t really care if an alcoholic has the membership. If they want to put that crap in their body and as long as they aren’t being a nuisance, it is their life. It would be nice if someone tried to educate them on what it does to their body, but it is ultimately up to them what they do with that information.
@yin
I would suggest it could be more than just how I want to look at it. Human nature is human nature: and some are more “controlled” by it than others.
It’s less about “fault” than just about “what makes us tick” as a species. I can all-but guarantee that this is how the WBC’s will see it — and that they will use it as fuel to “fire up their game”. And more importantly, that this is EXACTLY what the purchaser who sought that location and chose the decoration desired. A similar expression in a slightly different location would not have been nearly so, “Let’s bring on round 2!!”.
I wonder if the “respect” thing needs to go both ways . . . or if just one side can hoard it up for just themselves? There is not a lot of respect in actions that from start-to-finish, are designed to poke and prod others. Just because it is “your right” doesn’t always make it wise; inspired; considerate; peaceful. There is zero question in my mind, that location and decoration were less for the affirmation of the individual than to antagonize and “keep the battle going” . . . in a way and place where it really didn’t need to. (As in, do I REALLY need to set up a “Prime Rare Beef” booth . . . at a vegetarian convention just because “I have the right”!?)
With the alcoholic analogy it’s less about their weakness to put that crap into their bodies . . . as the open, flagrant, and disrespectful “”gift”” that is essentially enabling more death and destruction, than life.
Again, this is NOT about “who’s right and who’s wrong” (one of our most favoritest games to play!). This is about peace.
Basically I feel that if a nation that has its structure founded on such a magnificent document known as the US Constitution; then there is no hope for any country globally to ever have the capacity to be a totally just.
Laws, that rely on interpretation are great for the rich and smart and bad for the dumb and poor. Unfortunately, laws are supposed to be created to protect the dumb and poor who are purported to be equal. Newsflash; they’re not…at least not in the eyes of the law which is supposedly blind.
It really comes down to this. what is the prevalent driver of the USA; Greed or Justice?
The US did not become a world superpower based on justice, otherwise there would be far fewer billionaires.
@Scarlett when it comes to social, we have a mechanism already in place that allows us to influence the agenda, it is called voting and unfortunately less than half the eligible voters go out and do it. And equally unfortunate us that the half that do, do not do it responsibly and are easily influenced by manipulative techniques as they cast their votes.
To do it correctly you need to.
Know the issues and actively be involved setting the agenda.
KNOW the person who is representing your concerns, Talk to them and demand that they respond to you concerns. Be a voice. I write to me Member of Parliament at the provincial and federal level and I encourage friends to do the same or stop their whining. Not much but on things that matter to me,
The other thing is I ACT in a way that illustrates my beliefs. I accept that I am equal to most. I have trouble with very rich people. I have to focus really hard on trying to think I’m equal, because I really feel like they believe they are superior. Because of that I seem to show a prejudice that make me not want them to be friends, so I do very little to encourage it. Its a reverse prejudice which is nothing to be proud of, but it serves to show how I am capable to be biased and be conscious of making the effort not to be elsewhere.
i still think the heart of every nation lives in the smaller community. and this is where i see social action and justice have voice. but growing beyond that is the hard part. but vital
@BelleMadre I think this is true. I read people get into trouble when they reach the size of larger than 50. Too many competing egos at that point I guess.
@Scarlett so many factions. i wonder if Too many factions is a thing. when do they stop accomplishing and just end up talking it out more and more?! smaller groups plan bigger groups talk. thats something i have witnessed anyway
24 responses to “what is your opinion on social justice?”
Social justice progresses, it then receives a push back. It happens and probably will always happen. I get that there are some aspects that maybe are nonissue that some liberals/progressives take a little too far, but social justice in general is very important. Unless world leaders (one in particular) do something crazy, I don’t think this will be a permanent setback. It’s just odd to me that it is this hard to push for equality, empathy, and nonviolent justice. We have come so far from where we originally were. I have to assume that we can progress even further if given the time. There may be roadblocks or entire walls that block us from it, but they will most likely go the way of the Berlin Wall.
@yin What do you think about the way ideology influences social justice or lack thereof? What, in your opinion, would be the best way to penetrate ideology that decreases the likelihood of an increase in social justice) or, can it be penetrated?
@Scarlett I typed out a whole thing but deleted it. Didn’t feel comfortable with it. Your question though, are you basically asking what would be a way to stop people from making roadblocks to social justice? I read it like that. I think my answer is just about the same as it is with most other things. Education. We need better systems of education and we need to help poor people better. When our education rises and living conditions better, I believe we will be more understanding and be more peaceful towards one another. My original response went into private and home school and whatnot, but I didn’t feel comfortable speaking about it since I don’t know much about it. Just odd that we separate kids like that and are surprised when their education and social experiences differ so greatly.
@yin I agree with what you say about education being a starting point. I think it would be a huge step to begin to educate kids about critical thinking earlier on.
When it comes to the confederate statues being taken down, do you think this would work as a symbol for kids today, to say, “this is who we were, but we are not they anymore.”?
@Scarlett If we teach younger kids why we are removing them? I believe it could. We can’t keep them up and say that. We can’t say we are no longer these people while we are still glorifying these people. We need to celebrate those that liberated slaves and honor those that were terribly unfortunate to have been victimized by the Confederates.
I kind of went on a longer rant, but I feel that this topic itself wasn’t what you asked so I cut it. But yes, I really do feel that this could be a great time to teach kids that we are no longer that and that we must be better than those that came before us. It isn’t to remove or erase history. It is to be able to teach it responsibly.
@yin
The problem is that only parts of society have come far. For society to come far, everyone in it has to come along.
The problem is that there is a real zeal to demonize, exclude, and ostsrcise any elements not keeping pace.
Those racing ahead may need to give it a break and let others catch up; without mocking them for not running ahead with them.
@griz Man, I typed a thing, posted, and then it said I wasn’t logged in so I lost it. The highlights I guess: I am a big fan of Aaron Jackson of Planting Peace and Equality House. He bought a house across the street to the Westboro Baptist Church and painted it rainbow. He is nothing but pleasant to them. Someone also bought the house next that that and painted it the transgender pride flag colors. One of the WBC kids that I know of even left the church and is helping Aaron with Planting Peace. I totally respect what he does. I can see how it can be potentially dangerous though. Overall, I’m not sure what the most effective way is. I just know that education is a must and being as peaceful as possible while standing firm with the message of social justice is important.
@yin
I like how your responses invite me to think! To me, this is the heart of learning.
“Education” is just the institution we invented seeking to formalize, standardize, and control not just the process . . . but minds as well. (Consider the fine line between education and indoctrination).
The path to unity, peace and respect is not found while perusing disrespect, contention and adversarial segregation.
This invites us to reconsider the tactic of erecting “an opposing stronghold” right across the street from an existing one.
While I appreciate the irony of such a move, nobody is really holding the high ground here (ethically or tactically). Do you think this is going to weaken or strengthen the wb’s resolve?
It’s all still tit for tat warfare, with the added insult of proselytizing one of their children away. This is the spirit of contention and conflict; not the spirit of peace.
The answer is going to have to be something different: not just more of the same tactic played differently by opposing sides.
@griz Sorry for waiting so long to respond to this. I was having some trouble comprehending (my personal problem, not your post) and just ignored for a while.
I agree that there is a fine line. I feel that the problem is people thinking that science is indoctrination. Or that questioning religions is indoctrination. Or sexual education. I mean, we have people that think the Earth is flat, in 2017. I am totally for questioning everything, but that conclusion seems… off.
I’m not sure I’d call it an opposing stronghold. One side literally protested the funerals of killed soldiers. The other is welcoming to all, including those across the street. I also haven’t heard much of the WBC as of late. Not sure if the Equality House or Anonymous did that though. I just know that they seemingly stopped what they were doing for the most part. The man who created the church, Fred Phelps, was said to even have been excommunicated himself due to his change of heart and his support of the people at the Equality House. If they want to disown their family for choosing acceptance, that is on them. I don’t think just letting them exist as they were with no other message in site was working though. I can’t be mad at a more accepting message that may sway the opinions of some of those that are less accepting across the street. If the Equality House was a(n) *insert other religion here* version of the WBC, I’d be willing to agree. I just can’t equate the two currently.
@yin, @mj
Let MJ know about your lost response. The input buffer used to hold your response even if you were navigated away from that screen; waiting to clear it until you opened the input buffer on a different thread. It would be nice to restore that function.
Like you, I’m not wise enough to say what the best way is. But I am wise enough to observe that even a clever retaliatory response rarely is as good as it seems at the time.
Education is a good and essential thing. Education with a cattle prod, not so much! (A rainbow house across the road and “stealing” one of their young people does considerable prodding! It will most likely have a rebound effect.)
I’m not a big fan of doing better than someone else, by doing essentially the same thing they did!
Which is less a strike against Aaron or Planting Peace, as an invite to consider more effective tactics then just racking up “likes”.
@griz Thanks for tagging me on this. I will try to do some research on these issues.
@griz I don’t see how it can be seen as stealing their young at all. If the WBC sees it that way and retaliates, that is all on them. I am sure MLK and others marching down the street was seen as prodding too, but it needed to happen. Now, I’m not actually trying to compare Planting Peace with MLK, but blatantly doing good deeds in front of those that despise you shouldn’t be seen as prodding.
@yin
Consider how ingrained subjective thinking is in Humanity. So very often something is “not what it is, but what it looks/feels like”.
I was for a moment, “channeling” (lol) the WBC’s. I have no doubt they see only skullduggery and theft of their young people by them devilin’ gays! This will NOT be taken as educational but rather as incontrovertable proof . . . that their continued (and accelerated?)actions against GBLT’s are justified.
Hence, the “rebound effect”.
So then we’re left pondering whether an action that enables and empowers fallacious thinking, is truly a good deed? (Sort of like buying a “Whiskey-of-the-month” membership for a confirmed alcoholic).
Again, I’m not trying to “demonize” a person or their actions. I’m simply looking at this as lesson in human nature — and particularly human nature when WE are “shouting” (in words or actions) that WE are right (and others are wrong!).
Any learning and change will have to somehow exceed these ego-Olympics we so love to play! Some battles need to be fought. But in too many cases the path to peace is not “winning” . . . but in refusing to endorse and support the battle by upping the ante in the first place.
@griz I guess, if that is how you want to look at it. I just can’t see where there is a fault for a peaceful showing of unity across the street of the WBC. I can’t see where consenting adults living how they want could be considered wrong. I mean, if one side HAS to be right and one wrong, I think the ones accepting others living how they choose is on the right side. Could denying them how they want to live be considered right? Without religion? I also don’t really care if an alcoholic has the membership. If they want to put that crap in their body and as long as they aren’t being a nuisance, it is their life. It would be nice if someone tried to educate them on what it does to their body, but it is ultimately up to them what they do with that information.
@yin
I would suggest it could be more than just how I want to look at it. Human nature is human nature: and some are more “controlled” by it than others.
It’s less about “fault” than just about “what makes us tick” as a species. I can all-but guarantee that this is how the WBC’s will see it — and that they will use it as fuel to “fire up their game”. And more importantly, that this is EXACTLY what the purchaser who sought that location and chose the decoration desired. A similar expression in a slightly different location would not have been nearly so, “Let’s bring on round 2!!”.
I wonder if the “respect” thing needs to go both ways . . . or if just one side can hoard it up for just themselves? There is not a lot of respect in actions that from start-to-finish, are designed to poke and prod others. Just because it is “your right” doesn’t always make it wise; inspired; considerate; peaceful. There is zero question in my mind, that location and decoration were less for the affirmation of the individual than to antagonize and “keep the battle going” . . . in a way and place where it really didn’t need to. (As in, do I REALLY need to set up a “Prime Rare Beef” booth . . . at a vegetarian convention just because “I have the right”!?)
With the alcoholic analogy it’s less about their weakness to put that crap into their bodies . . . as the open, flagrant, and disrespectful “”gift”” that is essentially enabling more death and destruction, than life.
Again, this is NOT about “who’s right and who’s wrong” (one of our most favoritest games to play!). This is about peace.
Yes.
Basically I feel that if a nation that has its structure founded on such a magnificent document known as the US Constitution; then there is no hope for any country globally to ever have the capacity to be a totally just.
Laws, that rely on interpretation are great for the rich and smart and bad for the dumb and poor. Unfortunately, laws are supposed to be created to protect the dumb and poor who are purported to be equal. Newsflash; they’re not…at least not in the eyes of the law which is supposedly blind.
It really comes down to this. what is the prevalent driver of the USA; Greed or Justice?
The US did not become a world superpower based on justice, otherwise there would be far fewer billionaires.
@spitfire3dc I agree with your statement about the U.S. becoming a super power based on greed.
If we define social justice as fair and equitable rights, (rights, not priveleges) would you say you are a proponent for social justice?
If you are a proponent for social justice, in what way are you active in the social justice movement?
@Scarlett when it comes to social, we have a mechanism already in place that allows us to influence the agenda, it is called voting and unfortunately less than half the eligible voters go out and do it. And equally unfortunate us that the half that do, do not do it responsibly and are easily influenced by manipulative techniques as they cast their votes.
To do it correctly you need to.
Know the issues and actively be involved setting the agenda.
KNOW the person who is representing your concerns, Talk to them and demand that they respond to you concerns. Be a voice. I write to me Member of Parliament at the provincial and federal level and I encourage friends to do the same or stop their whining. Not much but on things that matter to me,
The other thing is I ACT in a way that illustrates my beliefs. I accept that I am equal to most. I have trouble with very rich people. I have to focus really hard on trying to think I’m equal, because I really feel like they believe they are superior. Because of that I seem to show a prejudice that make me not want them to be friends, so I do very little to encourage it. Its a reverse prejudice which is nothing to be proud of, but it serves to show how I am capable to be biased and be conscious of making the effort not to be elsewhere.
i still think the heart of every nation lives in the smaller community. and this is where i see social action and justice have voice. but growing beyond that is the hard part. but vital
@BelleMadre I think this is true. I read people get into trouble when they reach the size of larger than 50. Too many competing egos at that point I guess.
@Scarlett so many factions. i wonder if Too many factions is a thing. when do they stop accomplishing and just end up talking it out more and more?! smaller groups plan bigger groups talk. thats something i have witnessed anyway
what exactly is social justice?
@Fletch I think if it as fairness and equality for all, regardless of skin color, creed, sexual orientation etc.
@Scarlett
never happen. never ever ever.
there are the haves and the have-nots, and there always will be.
its all about how much money you have (or can get)