Socio-economically it states that roughly 80% of the production (the assets) occur in just 20% of the population. This isn’t ‘meanness” or “unfair-ness” (as is rendered when just our emotions process it): it is a statistical reality of any free and open system.
The only way to sway this, is with tyrannical control. And this is what Marxism tried to do (to the utter destruction of every society that tried it); and this is what neo-Marxism is trying to do in our society, with the various “victimhood” identity groups.
Tying into another recent thread on values and structure, things start with values. This creates the structure (the hierarchy): which then naturally arranges itself according to the Pareto principle.
And only THEN comes the empathy part. We WANT the egalitarian Utopia . . . but how do we get there? How do we distribute production (wealth, even psychological assets) down from the top 20% to everywhere else without destabilizing and destroying the production structure that we all depend upon . . . even if we are NOT in the top 20%?
Note that this applies not just to finances, but to the abstraction of “power”. Many of these inane special-identity power-groups are not after money so much as after power. The power to try to re-write the society unto the management (or the elimination??) of the naturally-occurring Pareto Distribution. Utopia is craved; but only if they get to “dictate [dictator]” the form it will take. (We already see the “Marxian decay” in this process when almost every single one of them is seen going beyond “equality” into favortism of “their tribe” over others. They evidently don’t crave “equality” and the end to “oppression” . . . so much as THEY want to be the 20% at the top of the Pareto curve!)
The very strong caution is, that every society that has tried over-riding it, has paid a fatal price.
It might help if you unpacked your “each is important, but for different reasons” thought.
@griz which is why do i think by and large free will is is bogus deal. Eliminate the possibility of mistakes, death, political manuvering, and hoarding, and no ability to see what others have, and wanting it, you have a system that is perfect. These ideas are like the orobos, or yin-yang symbol, as one increases, the other decreases.
@Jear77
It would be rolling back the evolutionary change that has already proven so outrageously successful over hundreds of thousands of years.
We are still a very childish and immature species. And one of the markers of that immaturity is that a child will throw away something it might see as bothersome in the moment . . . but then really miss it later.
I watched a movie the other day where one lone indian boy circa the early 1800’s was trying to journey across the American SW back to his tribe. He had a blanket to ward off the bitter cold of the desert night. But when the sweltering heat hit the next day he shrugged it off, stared at it, then walked away: not realizing that his survival the next night likely depended upon it.
I’ve mentioned this to you before. You have a zeal to want to shrug off something imminently valuable, just because you find it bothersome in your current mindset.
@griz you don’t get it. We wouldn’t have the capacity to miss it because it could never enter our mindset. We would be self aware, yes, but certain things could not be conceived of period.
@griz the key point is that you say free will is an infinite good. Anything that is unable to solve problems once and for all in this iteration becomes not only an infinite evil, but an infinite curse… which is easily seen by the fact that doing good often causes mountainous, sometimes insurmountable problems.
I don’t think I would say something I didn’t believe.
It is a necessary step towards an Infinite Good.
But that it “IS” an infinite good? That sounds more like something you once held but now reject for the reason that it seems to have only brought you “the evil suffering” that is an intrinsic part of ANY growth process.
(Exercise your muscles, and they hurt. Perhaps even unto thinking one has generated an “insurmountable” problem for negative short-term gain?)
Now flash back to what I said earlier this week about any “meaning” we enforce strongly enough, warps both perception (what we’re “allowed” to see) and the resulting personal reality.
@griz said directly, no… implied YES!
It can’t even be seen as a potentially greater good because of the nigh infinite potential/ reality of suffering!
@Jear77
Then we would seem to have a direct confirmation that relying on the implicit alone can very easily play into a personal agenda. Actually a personal agenda could leave one in a “”” perceived reality””” that would leave one with “no choice” but to accept the perceived implicit as the only measure to apply. (Which is postmodernism in a nutshell).
For I do not believe our freedom of choice/self-determination are an infinite good in and of themself.
They are simply means to an end: good or bad, we get to decide. And we are “free” to decide . . . only if we have kept ourselves free of controlling agendas that warp perceived reality.
(Tying back into your question, “What’s wrong with an agenda”?)
I thought we’d debunked the myth that any amount of suffering (including self-generated?) cannot be taken as an automatic indicator of evil! Actually, yes we have!
Attaching such a defunct “meaning” would render the “”””perceived reality”””” that the often painful road to recovery after an injury — or just plain strength training, are evil processes.
@Jear77
Better to never grow up and have to face adult responsibility and the natural results of poor decisions??? And perhaps responsibility for allowing our “meaning” become so “altered” away from shared reality that we would somehow NOT have heard (or seen in the street-examples you cite as “an exception” in another thread) . . . that crawling into a bottle to escape or trying to get meaning/courage/happiness out of a needle is an EXCEPTIONALLY BAD IDEA!
Who do you think there still is out there who MIGHT not have known (or have some idea) the inevitable consequence of addiction?
You keep defaulting to a very simplistic, even childish assessment of manifest reality. There comes a time when Peter Pan has to either grow up . . . or face the reality of an empty Neverland as the king of nothing because all of the Lost Boys finally decided to leave and grow up.
@Jear77
But the man with two good eyes to see who gouges one out so they can fancy themselves some sort of king is just a fool.
I don’t hold that I have all the answers. But I’ve already found workable answers to far more questions than I ever dreamed I would.
Because I stopped relying on foolish processes like religion, endless excuses, grasping for exceptions, and feinting blindness so I could avoid responsibility.
I understand there are random variables in even unfairness at work from our perspective. But also in a very real way, we either want or like the reality that is currently ours.
Because if we really and truly didn’t, we would change it! And not make excuses as to why we can’t!
@griz that’s our difference. You are able to put up with band aid solutions. I want a permanent, once and for all fix – not just for me, but all of humanity – or i don’t want to bother.
@Jear77
And then the flaming man said that he didn’t want to bother extinguishing himself and experiencing some relief, because that was just a Band-Aid.
He would persist in suffering until the problem of all people everywhere who were burning up was resolved.
Seriously????
I don’t think you are an unintelligent man. But this ideology/agenda that has seized your heart and mind has already cost you your reason your intellect your common sense, your perception of reality.
@Jear77
No accusation. Everything is just information to the wise man. And with some extra oomph if one is trying to wield it unto healing, rather than unto staying wounded.
Whether standard normal or exceptional, if one wakes up and finds themself ablaze, extinguish the damn fire! For the moment it doesn’t matter how or why it happened. Do something to manage the suffering instead of bitching and moaning about the suffering. (And no alcohol and drugs don’t actually do anything about the suffering in the long run. They are worse than a Band-Aid, because they add to the pain and suffering)
Even if it’s just slight relief, that’s something. And it doesn’t really matter if it’s temporary or permanent while you’re suffering.
And then with a clearer head, you might find the fix is longer-term than you anticipated. So with that clearer head go out and fix up another part of your life. If you get yourself fixed up enough you might even start fixing up your family. And then the neighborhood.
And if you can relieve a degree of the suffering there move on to more ambitious projects.
This is the “normal” and the “standard” from which you can say, “If you wake up and find yourself on fire, pick up a damn extinguisher and put it out!”
It is most definitely not normal to try to blame the ancestor that first tamed fire; or all the people that should come and put you out that don’t.
@griz there are things where it is useful to act. But basing all of one’s actions based on an unscientificly proved diety is neither not sane nor wise.
@Jear77
I’ve looked back in this thread. Every single thing I’ve given you to act upon is based on current secular scientific understanding. Developmental, behavioral and clinical psychology, with some time proving philosophy thrown in.
So why are you now citing your irrational God-fear and trying to call it some kind of scientific prudence? You just despise all the science I’ve offered you!
Your map of meaning has led you to this same impasse over and over; meaning it needs to be changed (or a totally new one charted); unless you see no possible improvement in your current status and / or like where you are and intend to stay there.
It is less a map leading to a meaningful destination as a map of how to avoid any meaningful destination whatsoever. The spirit of Freud may have just risen up and clunked you on the head with your offering of “an option of ignorance”.
Such a meaning does not tell one where to go; only what to avoid at all cost.
@griz the only things you talked about is uneven distribution (without a solution I might add), adult responsibility / peter pan ideology (that there is no scientific standard for!), myself ablaze… and the solution you give not even anywhere accurate. How can i take anything you have to say seriously? Answer, i can’t.
@Jear77
The point was I talked about nothing that should have lapsed you back into your God-hate. You keep coming back to that in a very Freudian kind of way my friend. (And a twisted version of God to boot).
I talked about a statistical reality of a free and open system. Your solution was dictatorship. As in really??
I talked about growing up and taking responsibility instead of blaming everything and everyone else.
Your current map of meaning dictates that you can’t take anything seriously that would sabotage your right to complain.
So here you are back with a “meaningful destination” of avoid meaningful destinations.
When the Kingdom of Heaven appears from within the midst of the populations, and the world is put under the Kingdom — then, and only then, will be the start of the beginning of a glorious planet earth.
With the Kingdom comes immortality.
The delusion that the earth is undiscovered first is amusing. But, it has been important for people to follow the path which they naturally will take.
Do they know of the Kingdom? When Jesus said, “Seek first the Kingdom”, who did this?
(I know I did the later, and as a first step… though, admittedly, I had been informed of this global change initially at age 6, so I naturally gravitated to the Good News.)
There are rebels, who want to get together and “do something”, but all of that will be over soon. Nobody needs to “do something”, but find the Kingdom — then see what the future is and what God wants of you.
@five2one
That’s just the new name for some rather old ideas.
My current understanding is that nobody is “put under” the Kingdom that does not put themself under that Kingdom. God values our “choosing” — and this only perhaps because “our choosing” has Kingdom value.
Any thoughts on why you seem so driven to “compete”?
What if I said I knew this initially at age 5? This is an element of the flesh that really don’t have Kingdom value. We don’t need to glorify ourselves in the eyes of others. We could end up “Luke 14:8”-ing ourselves! (Cross referenced to Pro 25:6-7)
The aliens (angels) are already on the ground. It is night, so people do not see. People will see when it is time to reap the harvest.
This is true, eyewitness to it, but no human beings will allow or accept it. As usual, if it is not something a person want to believe… they just downright won’t.
28 responses to “Which do you think (or “feel”) would create a better Society?”
Any society that can’t find room for both is poorer for the side of the equation they neglect. Each is important, but for different reasons.
@Jear77
Humanity has had a constant struggle to deal with a statistical reality called “the Pareto Distribution”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle
Socio-economically it states that roughly 80% of the production (the assets) occur in just 20% of the population. This isn’t ‘meanness” or “unfair-ness” (as is rendered when just our emotions process it): it is a statistical reality of any free and open system.
The only way to sway this, is with tyrannical control. And this is what Marxism tried to do (to the utter destruction of every society that tried it); and this is what neo-Marxism is trying to do in our society, with the various “victimhood” identity groups.
Tying into another recent thread on values and structure, things start with values. This creates the structure (the hierarchy): which then naturally arranges itself according to the Pareto principle.
And only THEN comes the empathy part. We WANT the egalitarian Utopia . . . but how do we get there? How do we distribute production (wealth, even psychological assets) down from the top 20% to everywhere else without destabilizing and destroying the production structure that we all depend upon . . . even if we are NOT in the top 20%?
Note that this applies not just to finances, but to the abstraction of “power”. Many of these inane special-identity power-groups are not after money so much as after power. The power to try to re-write the society unto the management (or the elimination??) of the naturally-occurring Pareto Distribution. Utopia is craved; but only if they get to “dictate [dictator]” the form it will take. (We already see the “Marxian decay” in this process when almost every single one of them is seen going beyond “equality” into favortism of “their tribe” over others. They evidently don’t crave “equality” and the end to “oppression” . . . so much as THEY want to be the 20% at the top of the Pareto curve!)
The very strong caution is, that every society that has tried over-riding it, has paid a fatal price.
It might help if you unpacked your “each is important, but for different reasons” thought.
@griz which is why do i think by and large free will is is bogus deal. Eliminate the possibility of mistakes, death, political manuvering, and hoarding, and no ability to see what others have, and wanting it, you have a system that is perfect. These ideas are like the orobos, or yin-yang symbol, as one increases, the other decreases.
@Jear77
It would be rolling back the evolutionary change that has already proven so outrageously successful over hundreds of thousands of years.
We are still a very childish and immature species. And one of the markers of that immaturity is that a child will throw away something it might see as bothersome in the moment . . . but then really miss it later.
I watched a movie the other day where one lone indian boy circa the early 1800’s was trying to journey across the American SW back to his tribe. He had a blanket to ward off the bitter cold of the desert night. But when the sweltering heat hit the next day he shrugged it off, stared at it, then walked away: not realizing that his survival the next night likely depended upon it.
I’ve mentioned this to you before. You have a zeal to want to shrug off something imminently valuable, just because you find it bothersome in your current mindset.
@griz you don’t get it. We wouldn’t have the capacity to miss it because it could never enter our mindset. We would be self aware, yes, but certain things could not be conceived of period.
@Jear77
The caution in this is that “Just a bit of self-awareness” = childish immaturity.
I can understand the desire to “Peter Pan”. But it doesn’t render good results over time.
@griz the key point is that you say free will is an infinite good. Anything that is unable to solve problems once and for all in this iteration becomes not only an infinite evil, but an infinite curse… which is easily seen by the fact that doing good often causes mountainous, sometimes insurmountable problems.
@Jear77
Have I said that??
I don’t think I would say something I didn’t believe.
It is a necessary step towards an Infinite Good.
But that it “IS” an infinite good? That sounds more like something you once held but now reject for the reason that it seems to have only brought you “the evil suffering” that is an intrinsic part of ANY growth process.
(Exercise your muscles, and they hurt. Perhaps even unto thinking one has generated an “insurmountable” problem for negative short-term gain?)
Now flash back to what I said earlier this week about any “meaning” we enforce strongly enough, warps both perception (what we’re “allowed” to see) and the resulting personal reality.
@griz said directly, no… implied YES!
It can’t even be seen as a potentially greater good because of the nigh infinite potential/ reality of suffering!
@Jear77
Then we would seem to have a direct confirmation that relying on the implicit alone can very easily play into a personal agenda. Actually a personal agenda could leave one in a “”” perceived reality””” that would leave one with “no choice” but to accept the perceived implicit as the only measure to apply. (Which is postmodernism in a nutshell).
For I do not believe our freedom of choice/self-determination are an infinite good in and of themself.
They are simply means to an end: good or bad, we get to decide. And we are “free” to decide . . . only if we have kept ourselves free of controlling agendas that warp perceived reality.
(Tying back into your question, “What’s wrong with an agenda”?)
I thought we’d debunked the myth that any amount of suffering (including self-generated?) cannot be taken as an automatic indicator of evil! Actually, yes we have!
Attaching such a defunct “meaning” would render the “”””perceived reality”””” that the often painful road to recovery after an injury — or just plain strength training, are evil processes.
Are you really proposing such a “”””reality””””?
@griz better yet to not have the freedom to pick up a bottle, a needle, etc… than to have to get off of it.
@Jear77
Better to never grow up and have to face adult responsibility and the natural results of poor decisions??? And perhaps responsibility for allowing our “meaning” become so “altered” away from shared reality that we would somehow NOT have heard (or seen in the street-examples you cite as “an exception” in another thread) . . . that crawling into a bottle to escape or trying to get meaning/courage/happiness out of a needle is an EXCEPTIONALLY BAD IDEA!
Who do you think there still is out there who MIGHT not have known (or have some idea) the inevitable consequence of addiction?
You keep defaulting to a very simplistic, even childish assessment of manifest reality. There comes a time when Peter Pan has to either grow up . . . or face the reality of an empty Neverland as the king of nothing because all of the Lost Boys finally decided to leave and grow up.
@griz maybe I don’t have any answers, but i know what I see. As the saying goes “in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
@Jear77
But the man with two good eyes to see who gouges one out so they can fancy themselves some sort of king is just a fool.
I don’t hold that I have all the answers. But I’ve already found workable answers to far more questions than I ever dreamed I would.
Because I stopped relying on foolish processes like religion, endless excuses, grasping for exceptions, and feinting blindness so I could avoid responsibility.
I understand there are random variables in even unfairness at work from our perspective. But also in a very real way, we either want or like the reality that is currently ours.
Because if we really and truly didn’t, we would change it! And not make excuses as to why we can’t!
@griz that’s our difference. You are able to put up with band aid solutions. I want a permanent, once and for all fix – not just for me, but all of humanity – or i don’t want to bother.
@Jear77
And then the flaming man said that he didn’t want to bother extinguishing himself and experiencing some relief, because that was just a Band-Aid.
He would persist in suffering until the problem of all people everywhere who were burning up was resolved.
Seriously????
I don’t think you are an unintelligent man. But this ideology/agenda that has seized your heart and mind has already cost you your reason your intellect your common sense, your perception of reality.
What next?
Your sanity?
@griz as you accuse me of – who’s reaching for straws – being on fire is never a standard – or even normal thing.
@Jear77
No accusation. Everything is just information to the wise man. And with some extra oomph if one is trying to wield it unto healing, rather than unto staying wounded.
Whether standard normal or exceptional, if one wakes up and finds themself ablaze, extinguish the damn fire! For the moment it doesn’t matter how or why it happened. Do something to manage the suffering instead of bitching and moaning about the suffering. (And no alcohol and drugs don’t actually do anything about the suffering in the long run. They are worse than a Band-Aid, because they add to the pain and suffering)
Even if it’s just slight relief, that’s something. And it doesn’t really matter if it’s temporary or permanent while you’re suffering.
And then with a clearer head, you might find the fix is longer-term than you anticipated. So with that clearer head go out and fix up another part of your life. If you get yourself fixed up enough you might even start fixing up your family. And then the neighborhood.
And if you can relieve a degree of the suffering there move on to more ambitious projects.
This is the “normal” and the “standard” from which you can say, “If you wake up and find yourself on fire, pick up a damn extinguisher and put it out!”
It is most definitely not normal to try to blame the ancestor that first tamed fire; or all the people that should come and put you out that don’t.
Final comment; unless you want me to continue.
@griz um.. no. Stop. Drop. Roll. They teach this in *kindergarten.* (By the time you find an extinguisher, you’d be more burnt)
@Jear77
Smartass.
The point is don’t complain about it.
Don’t look for someone to blame.
Don’t fish for reasons why it’s not worth putting yourself out.
Extinguish the damn fire!
@griz there are things where it is useful to act. But basing all of one’s actions based on an unscientificly proved diety is neither not sane nor wise.
@Jear77
I’ve looked back in this thread. Every single thing I’ve given you to act upon is based on current secular scientific understanding. Developmental, behavioral and clinical psychology, with some time proving philosophy thrown in.
So why are you now citing your irrational God-fear and trying to call it some kind of scientific prudence? You just despise all the science I’ve offered you!
Your map of meaning has led you to this same impasse over and over; meaning it needs to be changed (or a totally new one charted); unless you see no possible improvement in your current status and / or like where you are and intend to stay there.
It is less a map leading to a meaningful destination as a map of how to avoid any meaningful destination whatsoever. The spirit of Freud may have just risen up and clunked you on the head with your offering of “an option of ignorance”.
Such a meaning does not tell one where to go; only what to avoid at all cost.
@griz the only things you talked about is uneven distribution (without a solution I might add), adult responsibility / peter pan ideology (that there is no scientific standard for!), myself ablaze… and the solution you give not even anywhere accurate. How can i take anything you have to say seriously? Answer, i can’t.
@Jear77
The point was I talked about nothing that should have lapsed you back into your God-hate. You keep coming back to that in a very Freudian kind of way my friend. (And a twisted version of God to boot).
I talked about a statistical reality of a free and open system. Your solution was dictatorship. As in really??
I talked about growing up and taking responsibility instead of blaming everything and everyone else.
Your current map of meaning dictates that you can’t take anything seriously that would sabotage your right to complain.
So here you are back with a “meaningful destination” of avoid meaningful destinations.
Of “remain lost, but complain loudly about it”.
You were made for something far better.
@griz i can’t explain properly without writing a book, and we’re going around in circles, so i’m going to drop this. Final comment.
Oh, you have studied NLP.
When the Kingdom of Heaven appears from within the midst of the populations, and the world is put under the Kingdom — then, and only then, will be the start of the beginning of a glorious planet earth.
With the Kingdom comes immortality.
The delusion that the earth is undiscovered first is amusing. But, it has been important for people to follow the path which they naturally will take.
Do they know of the Kingdom? When Jesus said, “Seek first the Kingdom”, who did this?
(I know I did the later, and as a first step… though, admittedly, I had been informed of this global change initially at age 6, so I naturally gravitated to the Good News.)
There are rebels, who want to get together and “do something”, but all of that will be over soon. Nobody needs to “do something”, but find the Kingdom — then see what the future is and what God wants of you.
@five2one
That’s just the new name for some rather old ideas.
My current understanding is that nobody is “put under” the Kingdom that does not put themself under that Kingdom. God values our “choosing” — and this only perhaps because “our choosing” has Kingdom value.
Any thoughts on why you seem so driven to “compete”?
What if I said I knew this initially at age 5? This is an element of the flesh that really don’t have Kingdom value. We don’t need to glorify ourselves in the eyes of others. We could end up “Luke 14:8”-ing ourselves! (Cross referenced to Pro 25:6-7)
The aliens (angels) are already on the ground. It is night, so people do not see. People will see when it is time to reap the harvest.
This is true, eyewitness to it, but no human beings will allow or accept it. As usual, if it is not something a person want to believe… they just downright won’t.