There is a spectrum between truly “good” and “bad” behaviour. A child has no concept of this spectrum so we tend towards very blatant and obvious exercises of reward and punishment — hoping that by the time the child is say, 45, they can rightly discern this spectrum for themselves; and understand both the differences AND the “natural consequences/benefits” of each end of the spectrum both for self and for the greater whole.
I would say that generally it is better to reward good behaviour as it’s happening than just wait to punish the bad. But as a society we now face two very important issues:
1. We’ve fallen into a very smarmy process of wanting rewards and reinforcement for simply doing what we SHOULD be doing as a matter of responsible daily living. (ie, no “participation trophies” or tips/bonuses for simply competent performance.
2. More shamefully, we’ve now raised several generations of kids who have not effectively learned about the spectrum between good and evil, and who are now trying to call what is good evil and what is evil good, as a function of a totally selfish and subjective view on all reality as there to please and service them and them alone. We’ve essentially, through a couple generations of parental and societal choice in “banning” effective discipline at childhood ages, ended up with a far more dire need to play “catch-up” in the punishment of bad behaviour of children in the 25-75 age range.
The solutions I have come up with are creative. And at times not the most legal (the legality of the actions were… debatable to say the least). For if I did not, i would’ve been in a lot more world of hurt! Yet the guy I’m working with is fully cognizant of the consequences of my actions. But at day’s end, who’d be going to jail/prison. Me. But there’s no way in hell that I would allow myself to be arrested without him facing the selfsame consequences.
Oh I wholeheartedly believe that incentives are the best way to get maximum effort and output from most employees. I thought you meant pay raises just because you’ve been there X number of months or years.
I own 3 franchise stores and have 28 employees that are paid a base hourly rate (just above min wage), but I incentivize them with commission and bonus goals. The employees you covet are the ones making the bigger checks.
Bad behavior needs to be punished. How would you justify letting a pedophile go unpunished for sexually molesting a child? The only acceptable answer is, you can’t. People who engage in such horrible acts deserve to be disemboweled and hung by their own entrails from a scaffold in the public square. The deterrent effect of such punishment would dramatically reduce and possibly eliminate such criminal behavior from society. In a civilized society there is no place for allowing the practice of child brides. Any so called “religion” that professes the notion of legitimizing child brides and pedophilia is unacceptable.
But can any known (at least at present technology) deter 100%? Even in a day and age (i.e. the middle ages) where the punishments were a LOT more severe than simply jail time (though prisons of today are a LUXURY of the king’s dungeon of those!) – stockades, hand removal, torture, and hanging/ burning of criminals. A certain amount will be, but a determined person will still break the law even if it means getting into a situation where it’s certain death because they get involved with a shootout with the police, or barricade themselves (and their followers) in a compound in a tense situation and then drink tainted kool-aid then they will.
Any thoughts on how old Mary was when Jesus was conceived?
(The intent is not to justify or demonize anything but just to point out . . . social norms and taboos change and are likely to continue changing. Let’s not forget that concept of being in unbreakable covenant to just one spouse “till death you do part” . . . came out of a culture that in their infancy heartily endorsed harems of often VERY young girls. People who live in glass houses . . . should watch what they toss around)
You REALLY . . . only saw (and were in fellowship with) JUST a book . . . weren’t you? Tragic, really: considering just how much was there beyond “the dead words on paper” or the “ministry of death written on stone”.
The pallet of colors a society paints with can and does change as the timeline progresses. We have FAR “colors” to paint with than cultures that came before us . . . so long as we don’t isolate and self-aggrandize ourselves as “having the only true and valid perspective”.
Again, extreme arrogance looms over us in this presumption (as well as a desperate cry of self-righteousness!). Past cultures that sought “Truth” didn’t always hit the mark. But a lot of times they did; and in ways our isolationist, self-righteous culture patently cannot see. There was value in monogamous heterosexual relationship. There was value in effective disciplining of the young to avoid the outbursts of childishness that are today’s norm. There was value in a focus on people (or the society) over a focus on just capital. All things that we in our “”wisdom”” have greatly devalued — or outright tossed.
Shall I go on?
But you forget using anything else outside the bible (or the concepts therein) for *anything* in life is Christianity’s ultimate no-no… So to say that anything else CAN be used (including your own mind/ common sense, etc), biblically speaking… is quite frankly wrong! To take inspiration, guidance, life lessons, or literally anything outside cannon is forbidden,,,
What of the VERY last words of the bible – anyone who adds or subtracts from these words will be cursed (paraphrased)?! Add that to
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
Since the bible is forever sealed NO angel can come from heaven to preach ANYTHING because any message would be an addition or subtraction.
That’s basically saying to do anything extra biblical is forbidden. (though TBH there are a few scholars who think those words at the end of the bible were *added* when it was being compiled.)
add to that in this day and age if someone claims to be spoken to by god in this day and age are more likely than not insane, probably a danger not only to themselves, but everyone else around them.
When you look at how many people claimed to be spoken to by the bible’s god — even in the last century and the disasters that came of it — let alone the history of the time era that Jesus was living how many people died because of it?
And when it comes to the bible, specifically of Jesus, do we know we have either the true story… or is what we have essentially fan-fiction, a series of made up events – or wrongly ? Y’see there was not “Just” one messianic figure in the days of Jesus, there were many before him. And I wouldn’t be surprised to look through history and find others who were after him. Someone who woke up one day and decided to try to save his people. Every one of these uprisings against the roman government was squelched. I can see how a few of those stories could get muddled, combined, confused in the minds of the populace, especially in a day and age before photographic technology. How many people of Jesus’ general height, build, and features were there? Probably a lot more than you might think (as most of the people from the middle east look similar). Now from a sociological viewpoint I can understand what they were doing… and that’s the least of the bible’s problems.
To me religious texts are like a game of telephone. The message is whispered from person A to person B, person B to person C, getting warped, all along. The problem is this: person A no longer exists… and if one counts that person A may be god himself, may not have existed to begin with. And even if it does… it doesn’t matter at day’s end because he’s not taking an active role in this current existence, so I have no choice but to dismiss his existence altogether, and let the chips fall where they may.
AND when you add to that concept the gods that EVERY SINGLE RELIGION in the world has, all the religious texts, ideologies, theologies, and philosophies, the only thing it can possibly do is cause conflict, problems, and pain,. I’ve come to the conclusion that not only the world has no god, but it needs no god either. We’re messed up enough without the concept, without the need to worry about our behavior or the eternal consequences thereof. And I want nothing to do with it, ever again. Nothing that can happen, will happen will ever change my mind. Period.
Worship of the-book-as-God costs us much — including our ability to actually see what is written there.
1. Did the Bible in its current form exist when John wrote this? No. Some of the authors referred back to the works we now call the Old Testament. But there is little indication that they saw their works as anything more than standalone. The Bible was assembled hundreds of years later under the guidance\ authority of the Holy Spirit.
2. Maybe John was just talking about his own written works? How many books of prophecy did John write? One. The first was a gospel in the other three were epistles. (BTW, I checked the original Greek. Book of Prophecy is not a mis-translation)
” a gospel other than [this]”.
The gospel is Christ incarnated, crucified and raised to life again so that we might have fellowship with the Holy Spirit: A kind of fellowship that had never before been possible.
That’s it. There is no other gospel no other process no other Name by which we must be saved. And while it is not specifically said, John’s caution at the end of Revelation could well apply to this.
Trying to turn the Bible into God IS ” adding and taking away” from what is written; AND IS ” another gospel” by which people try to save themselves in vain.
It sounds like Bible worship is at the root of all of your problems. And when I point this out, you turn back to trying to worship the-book-as-God; and it blinds you to what is actually there. You are trapped. Trapped in a cycle of book worship frustrating you, and then trying to use the precepts of book worship to justify why book worship is no good. Which is actually true but then you use this as justification to never look for anything beyond book worship. ( which is a form of idolatry — worshipping a physical object as one’s savior)
It’s a devilishly perfect trap.
Also consider that your game of telephone analogy is short-circuited if you have access 24/7 to the original caller. But this is something you probably never knew about or experienced if you were worshipping just the physical collection of works we call the Bible.
Well if there is a god, I’ve been getting either a busy signal, someone that constantly hangs up, or someone who can’t bother answering. Also, to take the idea to the logical end, in order to KNOW that you have the right party on the other end you’d have to constantly have the scene of the hand writing on the wall in the bible!
then he should have made it clearer. He did not. Therefore, it’s not my fault. God has ultimate power to enter my life (though my parents who supposedly did have had a relationship throughout my life), and my parents pray for me daily (VERY few days go by they don’t read the bible and pray for myself and my brother — “the fervent prayer of the righteous man availeth much!” — so that’s basically saying that they’re not righteous) he had every opportunity to help, to change my understanding, to give me options. Since he did not – and is supposedly the smartest, wisest, wisest, most powerful being in the universe, I’ll pass.
Things that come easy are rarely appreciated. That said, it is childishly “easy” to recognize one’s insufficiency in things spiritual and place one’s total faith in Christ’s redemptive work: which is what makes the temple of your heart, a fit place for the Holy Spirit to DWELL (and not just visit and leave as with the Prophets of the Old Testament). The journey after that initial gift however, does take conscious effort and work. Not to “earn it”. But to fully unwrap it and put it to work for the sake of God’s kingdom.
God is NOT a wishing machine — where one’s faith in in their ability “wish” hard enough. Nor is God a vending machine that accepts tokens of “religious service”.
“basically saying that they’re not righteous”. Or that they’re still relying on a “righteousness-of-self”; meaning they have not yet fully accepted the righteousness of Christ imbued upon us. They are still trying to “do it themselves”.
“not my fault”. This is EXACTLY what both Adam and Eve said! They had already fallen into a sinful “fault” mindset. Eve blamed the talking serpent (as if a few warning flags shouldn’t have gone up there! But she “liked the message” he brought!). Adam blamed “the woman YOU gave me” (blaming both Eve AND God).
If you are STILL playing a blame-game, you do not and possible have never known God. He is not about blame or victimhood. He is about freedom, joy, peace, and possibility.
And no, that has not meant ponies or mansions or riches for me either. But rather unexpectedly, with my last realization of my total insufficiency in and of myself, I find myself with a comfortable income, a house, a new car for the first time in my life. God DOES work in these physical arenas. But go and meditate on Matt 6:33 (and the whole chapter as well).
What sort of righteousness have you been seeking? One of God? Or one of seriously-misguided Man-religion (Bible-worship?) that just cites God for extra umph while still seeking mainly a “righteousness-of-self” in performance/observance??
Freedom and responsibility… interesting you should say that. God has responsibilities too. He said “I will do XYZ.” Take and show god his own words, “ok, you said it, now fulfill your words, because if you don’t, you lie. There are no other options.” He either cannot or will not. Or as Elijah said god is busy, traveling, resting, absent or nonexistent, etc. Such a being that can’t even keep his promises is not something I want in my life, even if it does exist. It’s like an unreliable friend. Or one who does what he wants to do, only as he feels like it: the very definition of being a jerk.
You’re stuck in a rut where you’re not even listening to what is offered. You already have a construct “of your own understanding” functioning as your almighty.
How can you be so quick with the verses that support your construct, and totally overlook the ones that say your religious process has rendered you as someone who “knew Him not”?
So does the bible… which you have said more or less not to be used that way. Language is a thing meant to convey a message, and if the thing that is said to convey the message cannot or does not do so effectively at a literal level (which, i am a VERY literal person).., that means it is effectively useless.
There’s an axiom/ maxim which states “god meets you where you are,” Well where I am is i require $X. It was lower at one point, but due to cost of living increases and the fact that I have been virtually unemployed for such a long time, I’ve increased it over time. Anything less I’ll figure I did on my own.
Is that an actual Scripture verse; or just one of the lies that religion told you was “axiomatic”?
There is a truth to it, as in Christ left heaven and came to where we were to do what we could not do. But He did not arrive with a checkbook or bags of cash! He took care of what could eternally condemn us; and then left all the things that WE could do something about, to us.
Sure, He steps in miraculously from time to time. But He’s not the kind of parent who swoops in and does our homework for us, makes our apologies for it, removes all obstacles for us, writes a check for the coach bus we choose to slash the hell out of in a spoiled-child fit. (I once actually saw this happen. The dad stood by doing nothing, and told the driver/company to let him “get it out of his system” and then whipped out a check-book and bought the bus. He didn’t love his child with this: he actually hated him)
And for the umpteenth time, God is NOT a vending machine you put your “currency” of “religious work” into. Nor is He a puppy you can train to jump through your hoops.
You still seek a god-of-self as surely as if you were still trying to prove a righteousness-of-self through religious works and throwing everything Christ did in the trash so you could do-it-yourself. And you wonder why you cannot get Almighty God to jump through your hoops??
Remember how heaven is described? Gold streets? Gems the size of gates? Gold is equivalent to earth’s DUST and DIRT. If that’s what valuable metals are worth in heaven, I’ll take it off their hands!
I doubt a purely Spiritual realm, is going to have physical streets! Or mansions.
The best vehicle for trying to explain spiritual concepts to beings suffering from the delusion that they are entirely physical, is allegory.
So now you’re craving “dust and dirt”?? Remind me again of that passage speaking of saving up things of true eternal value and not things that can be stolen, misplace, or that moths eat or rust corrupts.
Flash back to your response about Lazarus and the rich man and what I said about accountability. Are you prepared to accept FULL and eternal spiritual accountability for your worship of these things that cannot last?
Are you prepared to accept FULL and eternal spiritual accountability for your worship of these things that cannot last?
If this is all there is… what do i have to loose? Think about it long and hard before answering me. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who does not believe. If this iteration is all there is… OR, conversely, consider this comic, enclosed.
LOL. I chuckled at that cartoon. I’m glad I’m not bound by religion; and in a way I’m pleased to see you fighting so hard to try to loose it’s hold on you. But you would benefit from refining your perspective into just what it was . . . and was not. And to avoid the pitfall of the religion of Atheism (which is more anti-religion than anti-God, but they are patently unable to admit this!).
The rub in what you say, is “If this is all there is . . . “.
What if tomorrow never comes? The fool says, “Eat, drink and be merry; for tomorrow we may die”. Partially true. But the wise man while kicking back, still accounts for a tomorrow that will likely come.
Or an ongoing existence once all the games and illusions of the flesh drop away?
There is no such thing . . . as a person who “doesn’t believe”. EVERYONE, without exception, believes in something as their “ultimate” or “almighty”. I probably could imagination-up such a fantasy-person. But there is more value in imagining a gravity that pulled sideways or set of physical rules/reality where the sky was orange and rain fell upwards. (At least I’m thinking about current physically-manifest reality!)
On the other hand, I know intimately the shoes of a person in the process of “losing their religion”. I know much about the delusion of “following no god” while passionately worship a god-of-self (while denying it . . . yet doing it). I know about the anger and frustration at religion and the awareness of the ultimate uselessness of the “religious process” (whether applied to God-above, or just god-me).
I pray you can transition through this. But it is a perilous land; and you have much anger and frustration to work through, that is currently running the show. And the pitfalls that will dead-end your soul do seem attractive at least in the short-term.
Everyone believes something is a core idea you repeat time and time and time again. That’s not quite true and you need to realize that.
It’s said that life starts the moment the sperm enters the egg. The moment you have that you have a “person” albeit not formed. Are you saying this collection of rapidly dividing cells has beliefs? I should hope not! Even after they’re born, a baby has very few beliefs, if any at all and for YEARS afterwards… and certainly none regarding god. Also, at the other end of life, a person up in years, unable to have a coherent thought due to having alzheimer’s or a person in a vegetative/ comatose state has no beliefs other than they are being taken care of. Yet a person who has not the mental capacity to sin still can do so. Using these 2 examples — or even a mentally retarded person with an IQ of 50 might not be able to have any beliefs either. Neither would a person born in a 3rd world country whose tribe has no religious beliefs, trying to eke by an existence, not trying to be eaten by animals. We’re all judged on our actions, and by all accounts ALL these people would go to hell as they COULD NOT by any means confess their sins, as so to have them forgiven. So PLEASE refrain from saying that ever again… it disrespects your intelligence, as well as mine!
It is for good reason many cultures and beliefs recognized and age of knowledge or an age of accountability.
Before this a child’s beliefs are simply instinct. And if you want to split hairs even the cells of a zygote have a belief that growth and maturity are a good thing — though this is manifest in the form of cellular programming /instinct. They are not accountable because they have no choice.
What I am saying most assuredly applies to mature [ing?] adult organisms who have choice and self-determination in formulating their beliefs and have reached the age of accountability.
I could choose to throw up a block of “intelligence insult” in such a bleak grasping at straws. But I won’t. So let’s not go there anymore.
While I am specifically talking about adult humans consider that even the animals have a form of belief that gives them their drive and motivation. In them it is hard wired as instinct, making them unaccountable for things they have no choice in.
But we are different. To say we have no choice is perhaps the greatest insult to the organism, the self, the intelligence, the species.
But there’s something I bet you did NOT know about the aging process. A person with dementia, alzheimer’s disease will often act out in sexually (and other) inappropriate ways — something they would never do when they had their faculties. Basically it was their sense of awareness that kept them from acting inappropriately, i.e. self control, on of the fruits of the spirit, according to the bible. If we view the mental decline as a result of natural processes, it could be said that it’s part of god’s will that it happens. Actually, as god controls everything, it could also be seen in one sense that god allows, promotes even the various diseases that man is afflicted with. If, on the other hand, this person brought it on themselves by not keeping up their health, it could be seen as a result of the punishment of sin. So, which is it? Natural or sin? Or some of each and god does nothing to stop it?
You point to a very good reason for not lollygagging in indecision as to which God you will serve and worship with your life.
You already know that religion does not work. But then you conveniently mix up what is God and what is religion.
“Sin” is simply a departure from Spiritual Life. That brings death, including the diseases that rush us towards its embrace. Almighty Jear, suddenly being here, isn’t going to change what has been going on for thousands of years or more.
So you can accept bitter resignation with no hope; or acceptance with hope. The choice is yours up until death or dementia take you! After that point it is alleged that the die is cast. So be hopeful or bitter. The choice is yours.
You asked in another thread about a litmus test for what we believe. Here it is:
Did your belief set you free; fill you with joy and peace; and give you the power to overcome whatever obstacles fall in your path? If so you found Truth.
Or did your belief system deepen your imprisonment; fill you with doubt uncertainty anger or resentment; does it make you victim to people and events falling in your path? If so you haven’t found Truth, but a lie.
And the rest of your days can be spent either seeking the Truth or being angry that you believed in a lie
I’ve been brought up on the bible. I know it topically better than many others, which is why I bring up verse, compare verse. No one who doesn’t know it as I do could. As I’ve had these severe problems in life, I’ve gone through the word and started piecing together things that maybe the writers didn’t intend, but are there nonetheless. And they’re impossible to ignore, even when one considers even a different time period, even when you consider it’s different writers, even in the light of theology which by its very nature can’t consider because they don’t want to see flaws, problems, contradictions not only in the word, but in its interpretation.
I know if there is a plan I don’t see it. Why tell people to bring the stranger in when the stranger has no business being in your house, even if s/he is homeless?! Particularly if the person in question has mental health problems. Y’see my mom wouldn’t have had the situation where her blood pressure shot up dangerously high if my brother and this insane man wasn’t arguing over my brother’s drinking outside my mom’s window in the middle of the night, which caused me to come home. I would have had 2 jobs, both minimum wage, in Chicago, but no ability to save any money because of the expense. I also would have been arguing with my “friend” over him needing my money to pay the bills. But I would have been on my own, because I would have been forced to be. C’est la vie. Oh well.
There are things from different authors that fit together in ways they never imagined but the Holy Spirit intended to be linked. But there are also ways are flesh tries to cobble things together that the Holy Spirit never intended.
Like most spiritual texts it tends to magnify whatever spirit is currently master of our heart. If anger or frustration out-weigh peace hope and love, you will walk away with a “gospel” of anger and frustration.
A good example is the same battle recorded by different authors in Kings and Chronicles. One reports a great battle of 3000 men iirc. The other reports a great battle of 5000 men. If I have a bad spirit in me at that moment of finding fault and flaw I will go “Ah ha” and stop reading; for I will have found my Lord and Master.
It will never occurred to me that perhaps two different sages were on different hillsides with different vantage points and saw different aspects of the same battle. I will walk away with the assurance that the Bible is false rather than the assurance that a great battle occurred.
I never used to see the overall plan either. But as I grew in fellowship with the Holy Spirit living in my heart I would sometimes see aspects of it. Then I would more frequently see larger aspects of it; especially once I knew what I was looking for. And now I am to the place where there being a greater plan and intent is just a given. Even if I may never know what a kind word or gesture to a stranger might accomplish spiritually, I know it is never in vain. Faith is still an aspect. But how much faith do you have that if you drop something from your hand it will fall to the Earth? You’ve seen it enough times that faith becomes expectation. Just like faith that someone is a good friend, with time in deep fellowship becomes the expectation that they are a good friend.
That said, I have had things happen that totally defied understanding the good plan in them. Some have taken decades or more. But in controlling the bitterness over these things having happened my heart was still soft and open enough to receive the gifts to them when they came. I can even see the loving plan and intent in my mother’s “too-soon” death. (And that’s a biggie)
Yet there’s something you don’t get — and obviously neither did god nor the authors who wrote these different passages: an inspired (and supposedly perfect) book needs to be internally consistent. Every fact needs to check out against every other one. Every passage needs to add to the same story.
You have stories such as Jephthah who vowed to kill the first person he saw. Who was the first person he saw? His daughter! Why not cause an enemy to appear before him? Why not strike him dead the moment the vow was made? In this exact same era, people touching the Ark of the Covenant were struck dead.
Then you have the story of Sampson whose magic hair and a vow gives him strength. And he broke every part of the vow except the hair and the hair was the straw that broke the vow to where he lost his strength. Then he kills the Philistines and himself by bringing the roof down on them.
Another passage that makes one scratch one’s head is the one in Leviticus about cleansing a person with a skin disease with all things as… dead bird’s blood! Doctors even 100 years ago would be rolling in their graves at that prescription!
In your example of 2 different numbers, why wouldn’t it come out in the texts that they were looking at the same battle from two different viewpoints? Or better yet, why when historians (for in addition to being inspired, it’s also to be viewed as a history book) compare and change one or the other numbers? god would know that there would be confusion, doubt arising from the mixup and thus need to make it perfectly clear.
The same thing can be said with countless passages in the bible. I wouldn’t be able to say these things if I hadn’t read them, been familiar with them. This isn’t bad interpretation. This isn’t even a bad spirit. These passages actually exist!
You still want to worship the book as if it is “”THE”” perfect physical incarnation of the deity. But isn’t that job already taken by Jesus Christ?
The Bible has many “uses, as outlined in the scriptures. But what is THE ONE key critical “good news” message that from start to finish it was intended to transmit? You can sum it up in one sentence; in one verse if you are is good with the Bible as you say.
This is what is perfect and complete and totally finished about the Bible. It is what we are caution not to add to or take away from. It is its core intent and purpose.
All scripture is God-breathed and perfectly sufficient for the intended purpose. From start to finish what is that one critical and miraculous intended purpose?
If one is astute it could be summed up in one word.
(And if you say “condemnation” you don’t get a gold star!)
I know what you’re talking about “the word of god is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.” But some of those examples I gave don’t fall into any of those categories. And if followed would actually get one rejected by everyone, sick from doing unsanitary things, or imprisoned for breaking the law!
Sorry no gold star for you. The only purpose and intent you hit on is condemnation; with bitter shades of legalism. You have totally invalidated Christ and are trying to still live in the old Covenant. (And then expect to be blessed doing so?)
The verse you mentioned speaks of just some of the “uses” of God’s word. You can use a knife to turn a screw but that is not its core intent and purpose for being. “It cuts like a . . . screwdriver”??
I am asking about the one key and critical intent and purpose of the entire Bible from start to finish. It can be summed up in one word: or one very well-known verse if you want to do it “by the book”.
This should be a no-brainer for a Sunday school kid raised on the Bible! You know what “the Bad News” is. But is there any “Good News” in you?
Actually you are at the point where you really need to learn this. “Love” is a “horseshoes or hand grenades” answer. It’s close and it “counts”, but it’s missed the pin.
The word is reconciliation. Renewal is another good one. Relationship is another — providing it is something that is alive and not dead. (Paul calls the legalistic old Covenant dead words, the letter that kills, the ministry of death written on Stone.) Oh, in the verse is John 3:16. Love is just what initiated it. Reconciliation relationship and participation with God’s Holy Spirit is the key purpose and end intent. This is the “seek ye first” from Matthew 6:33. You are wanting “all these other things added unto you” before you “seek ye first”.. Religion has you coming at it backwards.
All of the Old Testament points to Christ. All of the New Testament prophecy included, funnels back to Christ. In Christ’s sacrifice is the ONE thing that made reconciliation and relationship with the Holy Spirit In you, possible (ie participation). Before Christ the Holy Spirit just “visited” the prophets then left. Or the priests went to visit him in the Holy of Holies.
Now he dwells in those who accept and understand that Christ is God’s righteousness imbued upon us. (Did you never wonder why the curtain in the temple was ripped at the very moment of Christ’s death? It was no longer needed. The separation ceased to exist)
You get dead responses to your prayers because this is what you are worshipping — the “bad news “; something that is dead; the letter that kills; the old Covenant totally fulfilled in and by Christ . Even now your responses voice unending frustration that the old dead killing Covenant cannot save you out of where you are.
All of the frustrations you have been voicing about God are really just frustrations with the ministry of death written on Stone; and the religion that still has you worshipping this.
You need this breakthrough or you are just going to keep running in the same hamster wheel to exhaustion. And retreating into atheism is just replacing one religion with another.
But you don’t seem to get the point… reconciliation shouldn’t need to be made in the first place! Solution is VERY simple: don’t set up a situation where you know in your omniscience that it will need to take place to begin with. That it does shows nothing but a power play from god; a thing that in this life ends up being looked at VERY badly “Might Makes Right.”
Even the most wise and powerful Angel ever created could not improve on God’s design.
And when it backfired he tried to sell that same lie to Adam and Eve. They bit.
Some people gripe that we are still affected today by their transgression so long ago.
Yet here we are still reenacting that transgression over and over. We are still biting. Remember we tend to take after the god that we worship.
Anger and frustration at the LIE does not have to turn is into worshipers of the LIE.
There is a way out but it must be accepted as offered. Only arrogant and foolish pride would have us trying to put stipulations on the One who is bailing us out by doing what we never could.
We have been gifted an incredible opportunity. What spirit do you think would want us finding fault with it and in nit picking simplistic minutiae about points of implementation?
You’re wrong that this “gift” is a blessing. The gift is not something we asked for, nor would anyone actively seek out if in eternity, the spirit that would become human would know what it entailed. AND this gift is, quite frankly, dangerous with the problem of the possibility of hell. It’s like giving a child a loaded gun and giving him no instructions on how to use it.
The whole situation of this “blessing” of existence and choice of sin of adam and eve that you speak of reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode in which someone is given a box with a button inside. When the box is opened it doesn’t appear to have some sort of transceiver or anything. If the person pressed the button, they are given $1 million and someone they don’t know is killed. The episode went through and the person threw out the box, only to retrieve it and press the button. The people who gave the box to the person showed up moments later and repeats the stipulation that money would be paid to them someone would be killed. The interesting point is here is you get something great ($1 million) and something bad (a person who you don’t know will be killed). What’s frightening is that someone else may get the same choice and the character might be the one who is killed!
And the second point that you’re wrong is that one must accept it. You can choose to bow out of the equation and let the chips fall where they may. I feel I’m more than happy to discuss it with god, if such a being exists after my death. Until that point, I shall not. I must politely decline.
In regard to the angels not being able to see a flaw in the plan. Maybe they couldn’t because they were too close to the situation. We humans have this thing called “retrospect.” Maybe the angels didn’t/ don’t.
Perhaps by let’s say NOT putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil into the garden of eden, we wouldn’t be in this predicament to begin with. No magical tree of knowledge = no possibility of sin. And then there’s this weird statement: Genesis 3:22 “Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.” Sounds like god is some sort of extra terrestrial in this passage.
Perhaps NOT making angels with free will (or perhaps not making angels at all) 1/3 wouldn’t have gone with lucifer. Or better yet, don’t make him at all! That’s the simplest solution of all. No one to rebel = no war of the heaven.
Perhaps by making faith sight after death, we wouldn’t be in this predicament — in other words it wouldn’t be necessary to have faith to begin with, or perhaps not counting sin against us at all because the idea is foreign to anything else — nothing else in creation — animals, plants, the stuff that makes up the universe have a need savior! And if you say that anything else except man does, I’ll need proof.
Perhaps, instead of making mortality, there was only heaven. All these cut out the middle area where we would need to have a situation where we could have a need to reconciliation.
I can go on and on with ways that the very idea that it was 100% unnecessary.
We have great personal freedom in how we choose to interact with life — with this current reality before us. But our choosing, sets us on a path. And if one chooses the path of the curse, they patently cannot see the blessing. And if one chooses the path of blessing, the curse is little more than a mosquito occasionally buzzing in one’s ear.
Life as a “loaded gun”. An interesting analogy. And no instructions? I would reiterate that your past teaching seems totally deficient when it comes to the Holy Spirit. Again, it does sound like they had you WAY too busy worshiping the Holy Bible — and the more legalistic, condemnational parts that are part of a totally fulfilled past Covenant with a people you were not even a part of. You keep coming back to it like some spiritual “bait-and-switch” virus has been successfully planted on your hard drive.
You are right that if one is drowning and someone throws a life preserver, one has to choose to accept it to be saved; and choosing not to accept it (or to find endless fault with it) is in itself a choice freely made. So then we get to the brass tacks of “accountability” for the natural (and and possibly supernatural?) consequences of the choices we’ve made.
Back to the spoiled child. Perhaps if daddy has enough bucks he can “alter reality” so it seems one escapes the natural consequences of actions freely taken. But in the long run they are not doing the child any good. What they might excuse as “loving them” . . . in the long run is actually “hating them”.
The point with Lucifer, is that he most certainly had a LOT more going for him spiritually and power-wise than us. And he couldn’t tweak or improve on God’s design and it backfired on him. So back to the “pawning off” of the LIE to A & E and now to us to run with . . . and we think ourselves wise enough to tell God how He should be doing it better.
The tree: no choice between paths we would follow = no freedom. Do you truly crave a “child-proof” existence? Or do you want to live as an adult? I bet you would rail if someone showed up tomorrow to “nanny” you by removing all choices and ripping away from you anything you might hurt yourself with. I know this is harsh, but there comes a time when the child needs to grow up.
Allegedly, both the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil AND the Tree of Life were for our eventual partaking. Your “solution” of “just not having them” is akin to trying to protect our children by not having any stoves, fridges, knives, cars, pointy object, hard abrasive objects.
It . . .is . . . simplistic, at best.
It’s like you’re trying to “handicap” existence to cater to a child who never wants to grow up and be fully realized.
I have no doubt that you can and will “go on”. But you’re not doing yourself any good. You’re still following after “your god” . . . trying to improve on God’s design; and likely ending up in your own variant of what he ended up in.
If you want to “politely incline” yourself this way . . . that too is freedom. There is a GRAND lesson in the making here. It’s going to happen whether you acknowledge it or not. And it’s going to happen no matter which side you choose to incline yourself towards.
But I would maintain that a mix of bad teaching and now a large dose of anger and impertinence clouds the thinking and skews the perspective in accordance with Isaiah 5:20. Or what Jesus said with ” . . . they know not what they do”.
But the reality is . . . that you have had the Bible in your hands and before your eyes . . . and you DO know on some level, “what you do”. And this is why it is just that you be held accountable for the choice you make.
At day’s end I can’t worry about that eventuality. I simply refuse to, as I have enough on my plate. Since I can’t get a single job that pays enough to support me, it looks like I’m more likely than not be stuck in multiple, multiple dead end jobs to eke by, and perhaps do some side gigs besides.
But let’s get to the core of the issue here: The Christian theology it is a divisive thing — and the bible admits as such. It literally talks about families being divided. It’s also a thing that we in the year 2017 have little to no understanding of due to lack of people from that era. From a sociological standpoint we can know some things… others – let’s say killing (and handling!) a bird to get rid of skin ailments… not so much! We don’t have the cultural understanding of ancient Israel, nor the nomadic peoples that would eventually become the nation. We don’t have many other points of view in regards to the events in the bible. And what is the saying: Victors write the history? So we don’t even know the other side of the story.
On top of this it seems nothing but a sick game, one without loopholes for any unique circumstances. It’s one that one has to take even the words themselves at faith to cover those circumstances. It’s one I have no desire to play, and quite frankly refuse to do so.
It’s a game that warps one’s view on reality, saying there are forces that one cannot test in real life, when we live in a world that is quantifiable and qualifiable. And on top of this when attempts ARE made to do both under rigorous double-blind tests, it spectacularly fails time and time again. Even in terms of a relationship.
You’ve said that that a relationship is not testable, nor confirmable, nor provable in any way, shape of form. I would disagree with that. In a court of law, if it can be proven you associate with a person, or hang around people that they hang around, it can be said that a relationship is provable. They do this very thing in murder for hire cases in that the person who’s “pulling the strings” on the hit. The person on trial can try to say “Oh, this was a random killing.” but then the state’s evidence says “you were seen in with this person, who knew this other person.”
In the selfsame way, a relationship with life or the god of the bible as you like to call it should be provable in a court of law with a jury of your peers. In a court of law, if you brought together everyone who’s ever interacted with you, knowing the full extent of your family history, your genetics, and so on, everyone whose lives you touched and asked them if they could see god in your life, if they saw the events as miraculous when the entire picture of everyone else who was involved, the circumstances of said people, and so on, what do you think the verdict would be? Could any group of a dozen agree that everything you’ve (or really anyone else) experienced were directly influenced, inspired, or directed by god? If not, to me that’s a sure sign that one’s faith needs to be reexamined. And there’s one final piece of evidence that needs to be examined that ends everyone’s experiences individually in this iteration before this jury I propose makes its verdict: Death.
Christians feel a need to spread their particular message, their version of reality, as if by doing so they are able to make it so. And this version of reality — particular to their branch, their denomination also affects their paradigm. Some sects feel superior. We’re the chosen ones. We have a secret that we can share with you. Others feel rotten. You’re a sinner. You need to beg for forgiveness. You need to grovel.
And i before you say it, I DID at least try give all this to god for almost 40 years to try to get resolution. Epic Fail.
Relationship with religion or a book tends to clutter the plate. Seeking relationship with Truth does the opposite. It cuts through all the BS . . . and highlights that things we thought were different issues are really just the same issue. Dealing with one thing, can clear up dozens (or even hundreds?) of things off our plate in one operation.
“Families divided”. One doesn’t need “people from that era”, because the same process is ongoing today. And not just in god/church-religions. Consider the dividing of many families over the religion of politics or the worshiping of a POTUS as some kind of messiah. We have EVERY tool necessary to a good understand the context of the times, should we wish to apply them. Even without the more “mystical” spiritual gifts, we have History; and the fact that the Human organism really hasn’t changed that much psychologically and emotionally since it first sprang forth.
“So we don’t even know the other side of the story.”
That is contained in myriads of secular texts. They highlight very succinctly what can and does happen when physical “objects of worship” become one’s ‘god’. (Or if you don’t like reading, watch any popular crime-drama like CSI!)
I reject your repeated assertion that spiritual things cannot be tested in real life. Things of religion and object/person worship can be dis-proven. You are walking that path right now, to increasing frustration and consternation. But to equate the dis-provability of physical processes with “un-provability” of spiritual processes you never explored, is non sequitur. (something the path of the LIE depends upon).
Actually, I’ve not said that relationship is not provable in any form. That’s what you’ve been saying and I’ve refuted it. The proof is in the participation. If it is true relationship, both parties prosper. If it is just addiction, “using” and dependency, one prospers at the expense of the other.
And I challenge you to stand up in a “court of law” and provide admissible evidence of a loving relationship. The best you can prove is “association” and “co-dependency” (And the worst you can prove is “dependency” or “addiction”!).
Actually, the “evidence of change” in my life as direct association with the Holy Spirit living in my heart doesn’t take someone knowledgeable in every detail of my context and History. Plus, almost identical “evidence of change” can be found in everyone who knows this relationship — pointing to the source of this change being the same.
And likewise, anyone who has experienced negative personal change to association with the LIE experiences a similar theme in their life/path — indicating they all have the same source in common!
People of compassion tend to share what has worked for them, for the benefit of the other. People of passion tend to proselytize what they want/NEED to believe is working for them, mostly for their own benefit. This is why religious “witnessing” has underlying themes of cruelty, judgement, condemnation, hypocrisy and self-glory to it. And it’s pervasive insistence, comes from the often subconscious realization that little proof of effectiveness is in evidence.
(If one knows something works, they can just say “try it” and let the product/process speak for itself).
I would assert that all you tried was religion — and one tied more to a physical book (collection of works) than to anything supernatural. It’s “epic failure”, was inevitable.
You are trying to say “product A” didn’t work for you . . . when you were using “product L”.
Reward and punishment is a child’s process. That is because they lack the wisdom the Insight the life skills to learn any other way: whether one is a physical child a spiritual child a child to relationships a child to a new employment situation.
There is no shame in being a child. There is shame however if one remains there and refuses to grow up into an adult.
An adult does something because it is right and good to do it. It is right and good to brush one’s teeth or to take proper care of one’s finances. And rather than seeing it as punishment if one’s teeth fall out or finances collapse an adult looks at this as a natural consequence of choices freely made.
I think in the finite, mortal world, there is bad. So, people use the bad and the good to motivate others. Carrot and stick. Where the carrot is what the donkey wants and so moves forward, but if the donkey does not like the carrot, then you have to resort to beating him with the stick.
(Obviously, not damaging, not hard, just to get the stubborn donkey to move.)
For instance, I have an old big dog I take for walks. Sometimes she just plops down. I can cajole her, and if that does not work, I have to pull her, demand she move so we can get home.
The king of all badness is our mortality. That is ultimate badness.
And mortality is another word for finite lifespan.
In the world to come, I think it will be good, and happy. Why? Because God is good. Might there be scouring? It states there will be.
I have enormous fun playing my game, and there are challenges and so there is badness. No challenges, no fun. Disarm the enemy players, it would just be a video game slaughterhouse. God mode. No fun.
That does not mean I like pain. I like challenges, because they allow me to show my strengths. No, moreso, they allow me to use my strengths. To do something.
What if you had a third hand you could never use for anything? Finally finding just the perfect use for it is absolutely delightful.
It goes from scary oddity to superpower. Hypothetically, of course.
I’ve given god perfect guidelines. Get me a job that pays me $X. That should be simple for a god of the impossible… especially if money means nothing to god!
“I’ve given god perfect guidelines. Get me a job that pays me $X. That should be simple for a god of the impossible… especially if money means nothing to god!”
I have seen you post this absurdity time and time again. Just more evidence you never even have been to any church, much less read a Bible.
And, if that is not true about you… what is?
Frankly, your read is so far off even remedial Christianity, I am all the more convinced you are not even from a Christian nation.
Has that been your goal? If so, you succeeded, day one.
Believe what you will. I can’t change your mind. And I no longer want to try. But I am at the stage that if I get no benefit, I will pass on God. Useless concept. Useless teachings. Useless for anything in life.
“Believe what you will. I can’t change your mind. And I no longer want to try. But I am at the stage that if I get no benefit, I will pass on God. Useless concept. Useless teachings. Useless for anything in life.”
That you are a fake persona? No, you have not even tried. Had you basic reading of Scripture, your answers would show it whether you were just a church goer who never had the Spirit or not.
Also, unless you have something to hide, you would not be so incredibly evasive on such basic matters. Why not address the simple fact of my claims?
Really, who wants money so bad that they can claim they prayed to God and received none, therefore stopped believing in God?
Maybe had you known physical agony, I might find your pleas a little more persuasive.
Or, spiritual agony, for that matter.
I am ashamed, if it is true, that you went to a Lutheran Church for many years, without even coming away with basic knowledge of Scripture. I certainly have talked with many non-Christians who have much better knowledge then you have shown.
Though, then, again, I do recall one or two serial killers were hidden away as Sunday going Lutherans, and it is true, the difference between Roman Catholicism and Lutheranism is hardly nil. Where Roman Catholicism is the mother of all doctrinal errors.
As for what God provides? Happiness. And everything. Jesus even went so far as to say everything, including spouses, children, houses, property, money, everything. But, what you tried to do was the opposite of what he said to do.
The fact is, your statement shows you just want money. And money just is not so hard to get. That alone should give you a clue that God is not happy with you. (Even though I believe all of your story is not true.)
Also, you claim to be knowledgeable of some manner of severe crimes, which you are not going to the authorities on. How shall I guess you may not have monetary profit from these crimes, as long as you do not go to the authorities?
Knowledge of such crimes and not reporting them are themselves severe felonies.
Anyway, all you care about is money, not health, not peace, not happiness, not long life… so why are you even discussing the matter? There are people who really want more in life then just money.
Psychopaths just want money.
I don’t know anyone who just wants money just for the sake of greed.
All these things said, people do not choose to be in the dark. God chooses. Not people. This is very clear doctrine.
Your heart is very, very hard, at least, what this fake persona is saying all the time, and for such, they do not have life nor understanding, but just lists of rules, ‘do this, don’t do that’. Which you still have.
You may claim to nobility, to fool people, but when you leave your supposed faith merely because of money… that means your heart is in a truly terrible state. I know you usually will not be upfront and bold about this, but here you are, and in other places. Some who are greedy are dumber then you and always upfront about it. Like Mexican cartel gunners and gang members of all sorts. Money, money, money.
im all for positive and negative reinforcement. aka rewarding or earning or gaining or giving (praise hug point reward) for positive behaviour and negative (removal or denial of a thing) for less positive behaviour. which is very behavioural management of me. im not perfect it doesnt always work but it does teach some good lessons. and as long as hugs and praise have value im all for it!
62 responses to “why don’t we reinforce good behavior instead of punishing bad?”
There is a spectrum between truly “good” and “bad” behaviour. A child has no concept of this spectrum so we tend towards very blatant and obvious exercises of reward and punishment — hoping that by the time the child is say, 45, they can rightly discern this spectrum for themselves; and understand both the differences AND the “natural consequences/benefits” of each end of the spectrum both for self and for the greater whole.
I would say that generally it is better to reward good behaviour as it’s happening than just wait to punish the bad. But as a society we now face two very important issues:
1. We’ve fallen into a very smarmy process of wanting rewards and reinforcement for simply doing what we SHOULD be doing as a matter of responsible daily living. (ie, no “participation trophies” or tips/bonuses for simply competent performance.
2. More shamefully, we’ve now raised several generations of kids who have not effectively learned about the spectrum between good and evil, and who are now trying to call what is good evil and what is evil good, as a function of a totally selfish and subjective view on all reality as there to please and service them and them alone. We’ve essentially, through a couple generations of parental and societal choice in “banning” effective discipline at childhood ages, ended up with a far more dire need to play “catch-up” in the punishment of bad behaviour of children in the 25-75 age range.
But what about more than just adequate performance? I’m talking about things that are Above and beyond the call of duty.
Bonuses, awards and rewards should be reserved for things truly exceptional or praise-worthy.
Just showing up or having a pulse or doing something that shows they are not totally self-absorbed really shouldn’t qualify!
The solutions I have come up with are creative. And at times not the most legal (the legality of the actions were… debatable to say the least). For if I did not, i would’ve been in a lot more world of hurt! Yet the guy I’m working with is fully cognizant of the consequences of my actions. But at day’s end, who’d be going to jail/prison. Me. But there’s no way in hell that I would allow myself to be arrested without him facing the selfsame consequences.
like participation trophies?
then we’ll get, “why do something good if I’m not going to be rewarded?”
no thanks
Not quite. Payraises (for a job every few months), taking friends, coworkers or kids for a treat (whatever that treat is)
pay raise for just being there a specific amount of time?
expectations will be lowered, productivity will decrease, smaller businesses will suffer
I think sometimes people who work well would do better if incentivized. If employment were more profitable than drugs, would anyone bother to sell?
Oh I wholeheartedly believe that incentives are the best way to get maximum effort and output from most employees. I thought you meant pay raises just because you’ve been there X number of months or years.
I own 3 franchise stores and have 28 employees that are paid a base hourly rate (just above min wage), but I incentivize them with commission and bonus goals. The employees you covet are the ones making the bigger checks.
“why do something good if I’m not going to be rewarded?”
That’s exactly the process that is happening in society; and that needs to be guarded against.
The next step is people will want to be rewarded just for not doing something criminal!
Bad behavior needs to be punished. How would you justify letting a pedophile go unpunished for sexually molesting a child? The only acceptable answer is, you can’t. People who engage in such horrible acts deserve to be disemboweled and hung by their own entrails from a scaffold in the public square. The deterrent effect of such punishment would dramatically reduce and possibly eliminate such criminal behavior from society. In a civilized society there is no place for allowing the practice of child brides. Any so called “religion” that professes the notion of legitimizing child brides and pedophilia is unacceptable.
But can any known (at least at present technology) deter 100%? Even in a day and age (i.e. the middle ages) where the punishments were a LOT more severe than simply jail time (though prisons of today are a LUXURY of the king’s dungeon of those!) – stockades, hand removal, torture, and hanging/ burning of criminals. A certain amount will be, but a determined person will still break the law even if it means getting into a situation where it’s certain death because they get involved with a shootout with the police, or barricade themselves (and their followers) in a compound in a tense situation and then drink tainted kool-aid then they will.
Any thoughts on how old Mary was when Jesus was conceived?
(The intent is not to justify or demonize anything but just to point out . . . social norms and taboos change and are likely to continue changing. Let’s not forget that concept of being in unbreakable covenant to just one spouse “till death you do part” . . . came out of a culture that in their infancy heartily endorsed harems of often VERY young girls. People who live in glass houses . . . should watch what they toss around)
Mary was quite young probably around the age of marriage, which was somewhere around 12-14, which is child abuse.
Trying to judge past acts by today’s standards, which are always changing, is a self-righteous exercise at best.
Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black? You’re the one who wants to say that the bible’s morality is right!
You REALLY . . . only saw (and were in fellowship with) JUST a book . . . weren’t you? Tragic, really: considering just how much was there beyond “the dead words on paper” or the “ministry of death written on stone”.
The pallet of colors a society paints with can and does change as the timeline progresses. We have FAR “colors” to paint with than cultures that came before us . . . so long as we don’t isolate and self-aggrandize ourselves as “having the only true and valid perspective”.
Again, extreme arrogance looms over us in this presumption (as well as a desperate cry of self-righteousness!). Past cultures that sought “Truth” didn’t always hit the mark. But a lot of times they did; and in ways our isolationist, self-righteous culture patently cannot see. There was value in monogamous heterosexual relationship. There was value in effective disciplining of the young to avoid the outbursts of childishness that are today’s norm. There was value in a focus on people (or the society) over a focus on just capital. All things that we in our “”wisdom”” have greatly devalued — or outright tossed.
Shall I go on?
But you forget using anything else outside the bible (or the concepts therein) for *anything* in life is Christianity’s ultimate no-no… So to say that anything else CAN be used (including your own mind/ common sense, etc), biblically speaking… is quite frankly wrong! To take inspiration, guidance, life lessons, or literally anything outside cannon is forbidden,,,
You seem to be of the mistaken impression that God is flummoxed by the absence of a book. Or perhaps that God is imprisoned inside it?
There are no shortage of cults out there that will try to disassemble the Father Son and Holy Spirit and reassemble it the Father Son and Holy Bible.
It sounds like you embraced a counterfeit and now want to throw away something of infinite value.
What of the VERY last words of the bible – anyone who adds or subtracts from these words will be cursed (paraphrased)?! Add that to
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!
Since the bible is forever sealed NO angel can come from heaven to preach ANYTHING because any message would be an addition or subtraction.
That’s basically saying to do anything extra biblical is forbidden. (though TBH there are a few scholars who think those words at the end of the bible were *added* when it was being compiled.)
add to that in this day and age if someone claims to be spoken to by god in this day and age are more likely than not insane, probably a danger not only to themselves, but everyone else around them.
When you look at how many people claimed to be spoken to by the bible’s god — even in the last century and the disasters that came of it — let alone the history of the time era that Jesus was living how many people died because of it?
And when it comes to the bible, specifically of Jesus, do we know we have either the true story… or is what we have essentially fan-fiction, a series of made up events – or wrongly ? Y’see there was not “Just” one messianic figure in the days of Jesus, there were many before him. And I wouldn’t be surprised to look through history and find others who were after him. Someone who woke up one day and decided to try to save his people. Every one of these uprisings against the roman government was squelched. I can see how a few of those stories could get muddled, combined, confused in the minds of the populace, especially in a day and age before photographic technology. How many people of Jesus’ general height, build, and features were there? Probably a lot more than you might think (as most of the people from the middle east look similar). Now from a sociological viewpoint I can understand what they were doing… and that’s the least of the bible’s problems.
To me religious texts are like a game of telephone. The message is whispered from person A to person B, person B to person C, getting warped, all along. The problem is this: person A no longer exists… and if one counts that person A may be god himself, may not have existed to begin with. And even if it does… it doesn’t matter at day’s end because he’s not taking an active role in this current existence, so I have no choice but to dismiss his existence altogether, and let the chips fall where they may.
AND when you add to that concept the gods that EVERY SINGLE RELIGION in the world has, all the religious texts, ideologies, theologies, and philosophies, the only thing it can possibly do is cause conflict, problems, and pain,. I’ve come to the conclusion that not only the world has no god, but it needs no god either. We’re messed up enough without the concept, without the need to worry about our behavior or the eternal consequences thereof. And I want nothing to do with it, ever again. Nothing that can happen, will happen will ever change my mind. Period.
Worship of the-book-as-God costs us much — including our ability to actually see what is written there.
1. Did the Bible in its current form exist when John wrote this? No. Some of the authors referred back to the works we now call the Old Testament. But there is little indication that they saw their works as anything more than standalone. The Bible was assembled hundreds of years later under the guidance\ authority of the Holy Spirit.
2. Maybe John was just talking about his own written works? How many books of prophecy did John write? One. The first was a gospel in the other three were epistles. (BTW, I checked the original Greek. Book of Prophecy is not a mis-translation)
” a gospel other than [this]”.
The gospel is Christ incarnated, crucified and raised to life again so that we might have fellowship with the Holy Spirit: A kind of fellowship that had never before been possible.
That’s it. There is no other gospel no other process no other Name by which we must be saved. And while it is not specifically said, John’s caution at the end of Revelation could well apply to this.
Trying to turn the Bible into God IS ” adding and taking away” from what is written; AND IS ” another gospel” by which people try to save themselves in vain.
It sounds like Bible worship is at the root of all of your problems. And when I point this out, you turn back to trying to worship the-book-as-God; and it blinds you to what is actually there. You are trapped. Trapped in a cycle of book worship frustrating you, and then trying to use the precepts of book worship to justify why book worship is no good. Which is actually true but then you use this as justification to never look for anything beyond book worship. ( which is a form of idolatry — worshipping a physical object as one’s savior)
It’s a devilishly perfect trap.
Also consider that your game of telephone analogy is short-circuited if you have access 24/7 to the original caller. But this is something you probably never knew about or experienced if you were worshipping just the physical collection of works we call the Bible.
Well if there is a god, I’ve been getting either a busy signal, someone that constantly hangs up, or someone who can’t bother answering. Also, to take the idea to the logical end, in order to KNOW that you have the right party on the other end you’d have to constantly have the scene of the hand writing on the wall in the bible!
Another option, as with the prophets of Baal (whom Elijah mocked), is that one has been calling on the wrong God.
There is growing evidence that that religion only taught you Bible worship
then he should have made it clearer. He did not. Therefore, it’s not my fault. God has ultimate power to enter my life (though my parents who supposedly did have had a relationship throughout my life), and my parents pray for me daily (VERY few days go by they don’t read the bible and pray for myself and my brother — “the fervent prayer of the righteous man availeth much!” — so that’s basically saying that they’re not righteous) he had every opportunity to help, to change my understanding, to give me options. Since he did not – and is supposedly the smartest, wisest, wisest, most powerful being in the universe, I’ll pass.
“the he should have made it [easier]”
Things that come easy are rarely appreciated. That said, it is childishly “easy” to recognize one’s insufficiency in things spiritual and place one’s total faith in Christ’s redemptive work: which is what makes the temple of your heart, a fit place for the Holy Spirit to DWELL (and not just visit and leave as with the Prophets of the Old Testament). The journey after that initial gift however, does take conscious effort and work. Not to “earn it”. But to fully unwrap it and put it to work for the sake of God’s kingdom.
God is NOT a wishing machine — where one’s faith in in their ability “wish” hard enough. Nor is God a vending machine that accepts tokens of “religious service”.
“basically saying that they’re not righteous”. Or that they’re still relying on a “righteousness-of-self”; meaning they have not yet fully accepted the righteousness of Christ imbued upon us. They are still trying to “do it themselves”.
“not my fault”. This is EXACTLY what both Adam and Eve said! They had already fallen into a sinful “fault” mindset. Eve blamed the talking serpent (as if a few warning flags shouldn’t have gone up there! But she “liked the message” he brought!). Adam blamed “the woman YOU gave me” (blaming both Eve AND God).
If you are STILL playing a blame-game, you do not and possible have never known God. He is not about blame or victimhood. He is about freedom, joy, peace, and possibility.
And no, that has not meant ponies or mansions or riches for me either. But rather unexpectedly, with my last realization of my total insufficiency in and of myself, I find myself with a comfortable income, a house, a new car for the first time in my life. God DOES work in these physical arenas. But go and meditate on Matt 6:33 (and the whole chapter as well).
What sort of righteousness have you been seeking? One of God? Or one of seriously-misguided Man-religion (Bible-worship?) that just cites God for extra umph while still seeking mainly a “righteousness-of-self” in performance/observance??
Freedom and responsibility… interesting you should say that. God has responsibilities too. He said “I will do XYZ.” Take and show god his own words, “ok, you said it, now fulfill your words, because if you don’t, you lie. There are no other options.” He either cannot or will not. Or as Elijah said god is busy, traveling, resting, absent or nonexistent, etc. Such a being that can’t even keep his promises is not something I want in my life, even if it does exist. It’s like an unreliable friend. Or one who does what he wants to do, only as he feels like it: the very definition of being a jerk.
You’re stuck in a rut where you’re not even listening to what is offered. You already have a construct “of your own understanding” functioning as your almighty.
How can you be so quick with the verses that support your construct, and totally overlook the ones that say your religious process has rendered you as someone who “knew Him not”?
So does the bible… which you have said more or less not to be used that way. Language is a thing meant to convey a message, and if the thing that is said to convey the message cannot or does not do so effectively at a literal level (which, i am a VERY literal person).., that means it is effectively useless.
What do you think Paul meant when he said thing like “ministry of death written on stone”, and “the letter kills, but the Spirit brings life”?
The Bible has great value. But not as a god or savior. (And religious process has no good value!)
There’s an axiom/ maxim which states “god meets you where you are,” Well where I am is i require $X. It was lower at one point, but due to cost of living increases and the fact that I have been virtually unemployed for such a long time, I’ve increased it over time. Anything less I’ll figure I did on my own.
Is that an actual Scripture verse; or just one of the lies that religion told you was “axiomatic”?
There is a truth to it, as in Christ left heaven and came to where we were to do what we could not do. But He did not arrive with a checkbook or bags of cash! He took care of what could eternally condemn us; and then left all the things that WE could do something about, to us.
Sure, He steps in miraculously from time to time. But He’s not the kind of parent who swoops in and does our homework for us, makes our apologies for it, removes all obstacles for us, writes a check for the coach bus we choose to slash the hell out of in a spoiled-child fit. (I once actually saw this happen. The dad stood by doing nothing, and told the driver/company to let him “get it out of his system” and then whipped out a check-book and bought the bus. He didn’t love his child with this: he actually hated him)
And for the umpteenth time, God is NOT a vending machine you put your “currency” of “religious work” into. Nor is He a puppy you can train to jump through your hoops.
You still seek a god-of-self as surely as if you were still trying to prove a righteousness-of-self through religious works and throwing everything Christ did in the trash so you could do-it-yourself. And you wonder why you cannot get Almighty God to jump through your hoops??
Remember how heaven is described? Gold streets? Gems the size of gates? Gold is equivalent to earth’s DUST and DIRT. If that’s what valuable metals are worth in heaven, I’ll take it off their hands!
I doubt a purely Spiritual realm, is going to have physical streets! Or mansions.
The best vehicle for trying to explain spiritual concepts to beings suffering from the delusion that they are entirely physical, is allegory.
So now you’re craving “dust and dirt”?? Remind me again of that passage speaking of saving up things of true eternal value and not things that can be stolen, misplace, or that moths eat or rust corrupts.
Flash back to your response about Lazarus and the rich man and what I said about accountability. Are you prepared to accept FULL and eternal spiritual accountability for your worship of these things that cannot last?
You wrote:
Are you prepared to accept FULL and eternal spiritual accountability for your worship of these things that cannot last?
If this is all there is… what do i have to loose? Think about it long and hard before answering me. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who does not believe. If this iteration is all there is… OR, conversely, consider this comic, enclosed.
LOL. I chuckled at that cartoon. I’m glad I’m not bound by religion; and in a way I’m pleased to see you fighting so hard to try to loose it’s hold on you. But you would benefit from refining your perspective into just what it was . . . and was not. And to avoid the pitfall of the religion of Atheism (which is more anti-religion than anti-God, but they are patently unable to admit this!).
The rub in what you say, is “If this is all there is . . . “.
What if tomorrow never comes? The fool says, “Eat, drink and be merry; for tomorrow we may die”. Partially true. But the wise man while kicking back, still accounts for a tomorrow that will likely come.
Or an ongoing existence once all the games and illusions of the flesh drop away?
There is no such thing . . . as a person who “doesn’t believe”. EVERYONE, without exception, believes in something as their “ultimate” or “almighty”. I probably could imagination-up such a fantasy-person. But there is more value in imagining a gravity that pulled sideways or set of physical rules/reality where the sky was orange and rain fell upwards. (At least I’m thinking about current physically-manifest reality!)
On the other hand, I know intimately the shoes of a person in the process of “losing their religion”. I know much about the delusion of “following no god” while passionately worship a god-of-self (while denying it . . . yet doing it). I know about the anger and frustration at religion and the awareness of the ultimate uselessness of the “religious process” (whether applied to God-above, or just god-me).
I pray you can transition through this. But it is a perilous land; and you have much anger and frustration to work through, that is currently running the show. And the pitfalls that will dead-end your soul do seem attractive at least in the short-term.
Everyone believes something is a core idea you repeat time and time and time again. That’s not quite true and you need to realize that.
It’s said that life starts the moment the sperm enters the egg. The moment you have that you have a “person” albeit not formed. Are you saying this collection of rapidly dividing cells has beliefs? I should hope not! Even after they’re born, a baby has very few beliefs, if any at all and for YEARS afterwards… and certainly none regarding god. Also, at the other end of life, a person up in years, unable to have a coherent thought due to having alzheimer’s or a person in a vegetative/ comatose state has no beliefs other than they are being taken care of. Yet a person who has not the mental capacity to sin still can do so. Using these 2 examples — or even a mentally retarded person with an IQ of 50 might not be able to have any beliefs either. Neither would a person born in a 3rd world country whose tribe has no religious beliefs, trying to eke by an existence, not trying to be eaten by animals. We’re all judged on our actions, and by all accounts ALL these people would go to hell as they COULD NOT by any means confess their sins, as so to have them forgiven. So PLEASE refrain from saying that ever again… it disrespects your intelligence, as well as mine!
It is for good reason many cultures and beliefs recognized and age of knowledge or an age of accountability.
Before this a child’s beliefs are simply instinct. And if you want to split hairs even the cells of a zygote have a belief that growth and maturity are a good thing — though this is manifest in the form of cellular programming /instinct. They are not accountable because they have no choice.
What I am saying most assuredly applies to mature [ing?] adult organisms who have choice and self-determination in formulating their beliefs and have reached the age of accountability.
I could choose to throw up a block of “intelligence insult” in such a bleak grasping at straws. But I won’t. So let’s not go there anymore.
While I am specifically talking about adult humans consider that even the animals have a form of belief that gives them their drive and motivation. In them it is hard wired as instinct, making them unaccountable for things they have no choice in.
But we are different. To say we have no choice is perhaps the greatest insult to the organism, the self, the intelligence, the species.
But there’s something I bet you did NOT know about the aging process. A person with dementia, alzheimer’s disease will often act out in sexually (and other) inappropriate ways — something they would never do when they had their faculties. Basically it was their sense of awareness that kept them from acting inappropriately, i.e. self control, on of the fruits of the spirit, according to the bible. If we view the mental decline as a result of natural processes, it could be said that it’s part of god’s will that it happens. Actually, as god controls everything, it could also be seen in one sense that god allows, promotes even the various diseases that man is afflicted with. If, on the other hand, this person brought it on themselves by not keeping up their health, it could be seen as a result of the punishment of sin. So, which is it? Natural or sin? Or some of each and god does nothing to stop it?
You point to a very good reason for not lollygagging in indecision as to which God you will serve and worship with your life.
You already know that religion does not work. But then you conveniently mix up what is God and what is religion.
“Sin” is simply a departure from Spiritual Life. That brings death, including the diseases that rush us towards its embrace. Almighty Jear, suddenly being here, isn’t going to change what has been going on for thousands of years or more.
So you can accept bitter resignation with no hope; or acceptance with hope. The choice is yours up until death or dementia take you! After that point it is alleged that the die is cast. So be hopeful or bitter. The choice is yours.
You asked in another thread about a litmus test for what we believe. Here it is:
Did your belief set you free; fill you with joy and peace; and give you the power to overcome whatever obstacles fall in your path? If so you found Truth.
Or did your belief system deepen your imprisonment; fill you with doubt uncertainty anger or resentment; does it make you victim to people and events falling in your path? If so you haven’t found Truth, but a lie.
And the rest of your days can be spent either seeking the Truth or being angry that you believed in a lie
I’ve been brought up on the bible. I know it topically better than many others, which is why I bring up verse, compare verse. No one who doesn’t know it as I do could. As I’ve had these severe problems in life, I’ve gone through the word and started piecing together things that maybe the writers didn’t intend, but are there nonetheless. And they’re impossible to ignore, even when one considers even a different time period, even when you consider it’s different writers, even in the light of theology which by its very nature can’t consider because they don’t want to see flaws, problems, contradictions not only in the word, but in its interpretation.
I know if there is a plan I don’t see it. Why tell people to bring the stranger in when the stranger has no business being in your house, even if s/he is homeless?! Particularly if the person in question has mental health problems. Y’see my mom wouldn’t have had the situation where her blood pressure shot up dangerously high if my brother and this insane man wasn’t arguing over my brother’s drinking outside my mom’s window in the middle of the night, which caused me to come home. I would have had 2 jobs, both minimum wage, in Chicago, but no ability to save any money because of the expense. I also would have been arguing with my “friend” over him needing my money to pay the bills. But I would have been on my own, because I would have been forced to be. C’est la vie. Oh well.
There are things from different authors that fit together in ways they never imagined but the Holy Spirit intended to be linked. But there are also ways are flesh tries to cobble things together that the Holy Spirit never intended.
Like most spiritual texts it tends to magnify whatever spirit is currently master of our heart. If anger or frustration out-weigh peace hope and love, you will walk away with a “gospel” of anger and frustration.
A good example is the same battle recorded by different authors in Kings and Chronicles. One reports a great battle of 3000 men iirc. The other reports a great battle of 5000 men. If I have a bad spirit in me at that moment of finding fault and flaw I will go “Ah ha” and stop reading; for I will have found my Lord and Master.
It will never occurred to me that perhaps two different sages were on different hillsides with different vantage points and saw different aspects of the same battle. I will walk away with the assurance that the Bible is false rather than the assurance that a great battle occurred.
I never used to see the overall plan either. But as I grew in fellowship with the Holy Spirit living in my heart I would sometimes see aspects of it. Then I would more frequently see larger aspects of it; especially once I knew what I was looking for. And now I am to the place where there being a greater plan and intent is just a given. Even if I may never know what a kind word or gesture to a stranger might accomplish spiritually, I know it is never in vain. Faith is still an aspect. But how much faith do you have that if you drop something from your hand it will fall to the Earth? You’ve seen it enough times that faith becomes expectation. Just like faith that someone is a good friend, with time in deep fellowship becomes the expectation that they are a good friend.
That said, I have had things happen that totally defied understanding the good plan in them. Some have taken decades or more. But in controlling the bitterness over these things having happened my heart was still soft and open enough to receive the gifts to them when they came. I can even see the loving plan and intent in my mother’s “too-soon” death. (And that’s a biggie)
How long did Abraham wait for a son?
Yet there’s something you don’t get — and obviously neither did god nor the authors who wrote these different passages: an inspired (and supposedly perfect) book needs to be internally consistent. Every fact needs to check out against every other one. Every passage needs to add to the same story.
You have stories such as Jephthah who vowed to kill the first person he saw. Who was the first person he saw? His daughter! Why not cause an enemy to appear before him? Why not strike him dead the moment the vow was made? In this exact same era, people touching the Ark of the Covenant were struck dead.
Then you have the story of Sampson whose magic hair and a vow gives him strength. And he broke every part of the vow except the hair and the hair was the straw that broke the vow to where he lost his strength. Then he kills the Philistines and himself by bringing the roof down on them.
Another passage that makes one scratch one’s head is the one in Leviticus about cleansing a person with a skin disease with all things as… dead bird’s blood! Doctors even 100 years ago would be rolling in their graves at that prescription!
In your example of 2 different numbers, why wouldn’t it come out in the texts that they were looking at the same battle from two different viewpoints? Or better yet, why when historians (for in addition to being inspired, it’s also to be viewed as a history book) compare and change one or the other numbers? god would know that there would be confusion, doubt arising from the mixup and thus need to make it perfectly clear.
The same thing can be said with countless passages in the bible. I wouldn’t be able to say these things if I hadn’t read them, been familiar with them. This isn’t bad interpretation. This isn’t even a bad spirit. These passages actually exist!
Perfect for what purpose?
You still want to worship the book as if it is “”THE”” perfect physical incarnation of the deity. But isn’t that job already taken by Jesus Christ?
The Bible has many “uses, as outlined in the scriptures. But what is THE ONE key critical “good news” message that from start to finish it was intended to transmit? You can sum it up in one sentence; in one verse if you are is good with the Bible as you say.
This is what is perfect and complete and totally finished about the Bible. It is what we are caution not to add to or take away from. It is its core intent and purpose.
All scripture is God-breathed and perfectly sufficient for the intended purpose. From start to finish what is that one critical and miraculous intended purpose?
If one is astute it could be summed up in one word.
(And if you say “condemnation” you don’t get a gold star!)
perfect, if nothing else for historical purposes.
I know what you’re talking about “the word of god is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.” But some of those examples I gave don’t fall into any of those categories. And if followed would actually get one rejected by everyone, sick from doing unsanitary things, or imprisoned for breaking the law!
Sorry no gold star for you. The only purpose and intent you hit on is condemnation; with bitter shades of legalism. You have totally invalidated Christ and are trying to still live in the old Covenant. (And then expect to be blessed doing so?)
The verse you mentioned speaks of just some of the “uses” of God’s word. You can use a knife to turn a screw but that is not its core intent and purpose for being. “It cuts like a . . . screwdriver”??
I am asking about the one key and critical intent and purpose of the entire Bible from start to finish. It can be summed up in one word: or one very well-known verse if you want to do it “by the book”.
This should be a no-brainer for a Sunday school kid raised on the Bible! You know what “the Bad News” is. But is there any “Good News” in you?
Try again.
John 3:16-17 D’oh.
Love
… but I disagree with your assertion. But that is a discussion for another time.
Actually you are at the point where you really need to learn this. “Love” is a “horseshoes or hand grenades” answer. It’s close and it “counts”, but it’s missed the pin.
The word is reconciliation. Renewal is another good one. Relationship is another — providing it is something that is alive and not dead. (Paul calls the legalistic old Covenant dead words, the letter that kills, the ministry of death written on Stone.) Oh, in the verse is John 3:16. Love is just what initiated it. Reconciliation relationship and participation with God’s Holy Spirit is the key purpose and end intent. This is the “seek ye first” from Matthew 6:33. You are wanting “all these other things added unto you” before you “seek ye first”.. Religion has you coming at it backwards.
All of the Old Testament points to Christ. All of the New Testament prophecy included, funnels back to Christ. In Christ’s sacrifice is the ONE thing that made reconciliation and relationship with the Holy Spirit In you, possible (ie participation). Before Christ the Holy Spirit just “visited” the prophets then left. Or the priests went to visit him in the Holy of Holies.
Now he dwells in those who accept and understand that Christ is God’s righteousness imbued upon us. (Did you never wonder why the curtain in the temple was ripped at the very moment of Christ’s death? It was no longer needed. The separation ceased to exist)
You get dead responses to your prayers because this is what you are worshipping — the “bad news “; something that is dead; the letter that kills; the old Covenant totally fulfilled in and by Christ . Even now your responses voice unending frustration that the old dead killing Covenant cannot save you out of where you are.
All of the frustrations you have been voicing about God are really just frustrations with the ministry of death written on Stone; and the religion that still has you worshipping this.
You need this breakthrough or you are just going to keep running in the same hamster wheel to exhaustion. And retreating into atheism is just replacing one religion with another.
But you don’t seem to get the point… reconciliation shouldn’t need to be made in the first place! Solution is VERY simple: don’t set up a situation where you know in your omniscience that it will need to take place to begin with. That it does shows nothing but a power play from god; a thing that in this life ends up being looked at VERY badly “Might Makes Right.”
Even the most wise and powerful Angel ever created could not improve on God’s design.
And when it backfired he tried to sell that same lie to Adam and Eve. They bit.
Some people gripe that we are still affected today by their transgression so long ago.
Yet here we are still reenacting that transgression over and over. We are still biting. Remember we tend to take after the god that we worship.
Anger and frustration at the LIE does not have to turn is into worshipers of the LIE.
There is a way out but it must be accepted as offered. Only arrogant and foolish pride would have us trying to put stipulations on the One who is bailing us out by doing what we never could.
We have been gifted an incredible opportunity. What spirit do you think would want us finding fault with it and in nit picking simplistic minutiae about points of implementation?
Actually you’re wrong on two fronts.
You’re wrong that this “gift” is a blessing. The gift is not something we asked for, nor would anyone actively seek out if in eternity, the spirit that would become human would know what it entailed. AND this gift is, quite frankly, dangerous with the problem of the possibility of hell. It’s like giving a child a loaded gun and giving him no instructions on how to use it.
The whole situation of this “blessing” of existence and choice of sin of adam and eve that you speak of reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode in which someone is given a box with a button inside. When the box is opened it doesn’t appear to have some sort of transceiver or anything. If the person pressed the button, they are given $1 million and someone they don’t know is killed. The episode went through and the person threw out the box, only to retrieve it and press the button. The people who gave the box to the person showed up moments later and repeats the stipulation that money would be paid to them someone would be killed. The interesting point is here is you get something great ($1 million) and something bad (a person who you don’t know will be killed). What’s frightening is that someone else may get the same choice and the character might be the one who is killed!
And the second point that you’re wrong is that one must accept it. You can choose to bow out of the equation and let the chips fall where they may. I feel I’m more than happy to discuss it with god, if such a being exists after my death. Until that point, I shall not. I must politely decline.
In regard to the angels not being able to see a flaw in the plan. Maybe they couldn’t because they were too close to the situation. We humans have this thing called “retrospect.” Maybe the angels didn’t/ don’t.
Perhaps by let’s say NOT putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil into the garden of eden, we wouldn’t be in this predicament to begin with. No magical tree of knowledge = no possibility of sin. And then there’s this weird statement: Genesis 3:22 “Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.” Sounds like god is some sort of extra terrestrial in this passage.
Perhaps NOT making angels with free will (or perhaps not making angels at all) 1/3 wouldn’t have gone with lucifer. Or better yet, don’t make him at all! That’s the simplest solution of all. No one to rebel = no war of the heaven.
Perhaps by making faith sight after death, we wouldn’t be in this predicament — in other words it wouldn’t be necessary to have faith to begin with, or perhaps not counting sin against us at all because the idea is foreign to anything else — nothing else in creation — animals, plants, the stuff that makes up the universe have a need savior! And if you say that anything else except man does, I’ll need proof.
Perhaps, instead of making mortality, there was only heaven. All these cut out the middle area where we would need to have a situation where we could have a need to reconciliation.
I can go on and on with ways that the very idea that it was 100% unnecessary.
We have great personal freedom in how we choose to interact with life — with this current reality before us. But our choosing, sets us on a path. And if one chooses the path of the curse, they patently cannot see the blessing. And if one chooses the path of blessing, the curse is little more than a mosquito occasionally buzzing in one’s ear.
Life as a “loaded gun”. An interesting analogy. And no instructions? I would reiterate that your past teaching seems totally deficient when it comes to the Holy Spirit. Again, it does sound like they had you WAY too busy worshiping the Holy Bible — and the more legalistic, condemnational parts that are part of a totally fulfilled past Covenant with a people you were not even a part of. You keep coming back to it like some spiritual “bait-and-switch” virus has been successfully planted on your hard drive.
You are right that if one is drowning and someone throws a life preserver, one has to choose to accept it to be saved; and choosing not to accept it (or to find endless fault with it) is in itself a choice freely made. So then we get to the brass tacks of “accountability” for the natural (and and possibly supernatural?) consequences of the choices we’ve made.
Back to the spoiled child. Perhaps if daddy has enough bucks he can “alter reality” so it seems one escapes the natural consequences of actions freely taken. But in the long run they are not doing the child any good. What they might excuse as “loving them” . . . in the long run is actually “hating them”.
The point with Lucifer, is that he most certainly had a LOT more going for him spiritually and power-wise than us. And he couldn’t tweak or improve on God’s design and it backfired on him. So back to the “pawning off” of the LIE to A & E and now to us to run with . . . and we think ourselves wise enough to tell God how He should be doing it better.
The tree: no choice between paths we would follow = no freedom. Do you truly crave a “child-proof” existence? Or do you want to live as an adult? I bet you would rail if someone showed up tomorrow to “nanny” you by removing all choices and ripping away from you anything you might hurt yourself with. I know this is harsh, but there comes a time when the child needs to grow up.
Allegedly, both the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil AND the Tree of Life were for our eventual partaking. Your “solution” of “just not having them” is akin to trying to protect our children by not having any stoves, fridges, knives, cars, pointy object, hard abrasive objects.
It . . .is . . . simplistic, at best.
It’s like you’re trying to “handicap” existence to cater to a child who never wants to grow up and be fully realized.
I have no doubt that you can and will “go on”. But you’re not doing yourself any good. You’re still following after “your god” . . . trying to improve on God’s design; and likely ending up in your own variant of what he ended up in.
If you want to “politely incline” yourself this way . . . that too is freedom. There is a GRAND lesson in the making here. It’s going to happen whether you acknowledge it or not. And it’s going to happen no matter which side you choose to incline yourself towards.
But I would maintain that a mix of bad teaching and now a large dose of anger and impertinence clouds the thinking and skews the perspective in accordance with Isaiah 5:20. Or what Jesus said with ” . . . they know not what they do”.
But the reality is . . . that you have had the Bible in your hands and before your eyes . . . and you DO know on some level, “what you do”. And this is why it is just that you be held accountable for the choice you make.
At day’s end I can’t worry about that eventuality. I simply refuse to, as I have enough on my plate. Since I can’t get a single job that pays enough to support me, it looks like I’m more likely than not be stuck in multiple, multiple dead end jobs to eke by, and perhaps do some side gigs besides.
But let’s get to the core of the issue here: The Christian theology it is a divisive thing — and the bible admits as such. It literally talks about families being divided. It’s also a thing that we in the year 2017 have little to no understanding of due to lack of people from that era. From a sociological standpoint we can know some things… others – let’s say killing (and handling!) a bird to get rid of skin ailments… not so much! We don’t have the cultural understanding of ancient Israel, nor the nomadic peoples that would eventually become the nation. We don’t have many other points of view in regards to the events in the bible. And what is the saying: Victors write the history? So we don’t even know the other side of the story.
On top of this it seems nothing but a sick game, one without loopholes for any unique circumstances. It’s one that one has to take even the words themselves at faith to cover those circumstances. It’s one I have no desire to play, and quite frankly refuse to do so.
It’s a game that warps one’s view on reality, saying there are forces that one cannot test in real life, when we live in a world that is quantifiable and qualifiable. And on top of this when attempts ARE made to do both under rigorous double-blind tests, it spectacularly fails time and time again. Even in terms of a relationship.
You’ve said that that a relationship is not testable, nor confirmable, nor provable in any way, shape of form. I would disagree with that. In a court of law, if it can be proven you associate with a person, or hang around people that they hang around, it can be said that a relationship is provable. They do this very thing in murder for hire cases in that the person who’s “pulling the strings” on the hit. The person on trial can try to say “Oh, this was a random killing.” but then the state’s evidence says “you were seen in with this person, who knew this other person.”
In the selfsame way, a relationship with life or the god of the bible as you like to call it should be provable in a court of law with a jury of your peers. In a court of law, if you brought together everyone who’s ever interacted with you, knowing the full extent of your family history, your genetics, and so on, everyone whose lives you touched and asked them if they could see god in your life, if they saw the events as miraculous when the entire picture of everyone else who was involved, the circumstances of said people, and so on, what do you think the verdict would be? Could any group of a dozen agree that everything you’ve (or really anyone else) experienced were directly influenced, inspired, or directed by god? If not, to me that’s a sure sign that one’s faith needs to be reexamined. And there’s one final piece of evidence that needs to be examined that ends everyone’s experiences individually in this iteration before this jury I propose makes its verdict: Death.
Christians feel a need to spread their particular message, their version of reality, as if by doing so they are able to make it so. And this version of reality — particular to their branch, their denomination also affects their paradigm. Some sects feel superior. We’re the chosen ones. We have a secret that we can share with you. Others feel rotten. You’re a sinner. You need to beg for forgiveness. You need to grovel.
And i before you say it, I DID at least try give all this to god for almost 40 years to try to get resolution. Epic Fail.
Relationship with religion or a book tends to clutter the plate. Seeking relationship with Truth does the opposite. It cuts through all the BS . . . and highlights that things we thought were different issues are really just the same issue. Dealing with one thing, can clear up dozens (or even hundreds?) of things off our plate in one operation.
“Families divided”. One doesn’t need “people from that era”, because the same process is ongoing today. And not just in god/church-religions. Consider the dividing of many families over the religion of politics or the worshiping of a POTUS as some kind of messiah. We have EVERY tool necessary to a good understand the context of the times, should we wish to apply them. Even without the more “mystical” spiritual gifts, we have History; and the fact that the Human organism really hasn’t changed that much psychologically and emotionally since it first sprang forth.
“So we don’t even know the other side of the story.”
That is contained in myriads of secular texts. They highlight very succinctly what can and does happen when physical “objects of worship” become one’s ‘god’. (Or if you don’t like reading, watch any popular crime-drama like CSI!)
I reject your repeated assertion that spiritual things cannot be tested in real life. Things of religion and object/person worship can be dis-proven. You are walking that path right now, to increasing frustration and consternation. But to equate the dis-provability of physical processes with “un-provability” of spiritual processes you never explored, is non sequitur. (something the path of the LIE depends upon).
Actually, I’ve not said that relationship is not provable in any form. That’s what you’ve been saying and I’ve refuted it. The proof is in the participation. If it is true relationship, both parties prosper. If it is just addiction, “using” and dependency, one prospers at the expense of the other.
And I challenge you to stand up in a “court of law” and provide admissible evidence of a loving relationship. The best you can prove is “association” and “co-dependency” (And the worst you can prove is “dependency” or “addiction”!).
Actually, the “evidence of change” in my life as direct association with the Holy Spirit living in my heart doesn’t take someone knowledgeable in every detail of my context and History. Plus, almost identical “evidence of change” can be found in everyone who knows this relationship — pointing to the source of this change being the same.
And likewise, anyone who has experienced negative personal change to association with the LIE experiences a similar theme in their life/path — indicating they all have the same source in common!
People of compassion tend to share what has worked for them, for the benefit of the other. People of passion tend to proselytize what they want/NEED to believe is working for them, mostly for their own benefit. This is why religious “witnessing” has underlying themes of cruelty, judgement, condemnation, hypocrisy and self-glory to it. And it’s pervasive insistence, comes from the often subconscious realization that little proof of effectiveness is in evidence.
(If one knows something works, they can just say “try it” and let the product/process speak for itself).
I would assert that all you tried was religion — and one tied more to a physical book (collection of works) than to anything supernatural. It’s “epic failure”, was inevitable.
You are trying to say “product A” didn’t work for you . . . when you were using “product L”.
Reward and punishment is a child’s process. That is because they lack the wisdom the Insight the life skills to learn any other way: whether one is a physical child a spiritual child a child to relationships a child to a new employment situation.
There is no shame in being a child. There is shame however if one remains there and refuses to grow up into an adult.
An adult does something because it is right and good to do it. It is right and good to brush one’s teeth or to take proper care of one’s finances. And rather than seeing it as punishment if one’s teeth fall out or finances collapse an adult looks at this as a natural consequence of choices freely made.
I think in the finite, mortal world, there is bad. So, people use the bad and the good to motivate others. Carrot and stick. Where the carrot is what the donkey wants and so moves forward, but if the donkey does not like the carrot, then you have to resort to beating him with the stick.
(Obviously, not damaging, not hard, just to get the stubborn donkey to move.)
For instance, I have an old big dog I take for walks. Sometimes she just plops down. I can cajole her, and if that does not work, I have to pull her, demand she move so we can get home.
The king of all badness is our mortality. That is ultimate badness.
And mortality is another word for finite lifespan.
In the world to come, I think it will be good, and happy. Why? Because God is good. Might there be scouring? It states there will be.
I have enormous fun playing my game, and there are challenges and so there is badness. No challenges, no fun. Disarm the enemy players, it would just be a video game slaughterhouse. God mode. No fun.
That does not mean I like pain. I like challenges, because they allow me to show my strengths. No, moreso, they allow me to use my strengths. To do something.
What if you had a third hand you could never use for anything? Finally finding just the perfect use for it is absolutely delightful.
It goes from scary oddity to superpower. Hypothetically, of course.
I don’t mind challenge , stretching one’s abilities. I DO mind impossibility! And that’s the thing I’ve faced.
Everything outside the natural world is impossible for you, because your heart believes it so.
I’ve given god perfect guidelines. Get me a job that pays me $X. That should be simple for a god of the impossible… especially if money means nothing to god!
“I’ve given god perfect guidelines. Get me a job that pays me $X. That should be simple for a god of the impossible… especially if money means nothing to god!”
I have seen you post this absurdity time and time again. Just more evidence you never even have been to any church, much less read a Bible.
And, if that is not true about you… what is?
Frankly, your read is so far off even remedial Christianity, I am all the more convinced you are not even from a Christian nation.
Has that been your goal? If so, you succeeded, day one.
Believe what you will. I can’t change your mind. And I no longer want to try. But I am at the stage that if I get no benefit, I will pass on God. Useless concept. Useless teachings. Useless for anything in life.
“Believe what you will. I can’t change your mind. And I no longer want to try. But I am at the stage that if I get no benefit, I will pass on God. Useless concept. Useless teachings. Useless for anything in life.”
That you are a fake persona? No, you have not even tried. Had you basic reading of Scripture, your answers would show it whether you were just a church goer who never had the Spirit or not.
Also, unless you have something to hide, you would not be so incredibly evasive on such basic matters. Why not address the simple fact of my claims?
Really, who wants money so bad that they can claim they prayed to God and received none, therefore stopped believing in God?
Maybe had you known physical agony, I might find your pleas a little more persuasive.
Or, spiritual agony, for that matter.
I am ashamed, if it is true, that you went to a Lutheran Church for many years, without even coming away with basic knowledge of Scripture. I certainly have talked with many non-Christians who have much better knowledge then you have shown.
Though, then, again, I do recall one or two serial killers were hidden away as Sunday going Lutherans, and it is true, the difference between Roman Catholicism and Lutheranism is hardly nil. Where Roman Catholicism is the mother of all doctrinal errors.
As for what God provides? Happiness. And everything. Jesus even went so far as to say everything, including spouses, children, houses, property, money, everything. But, what you tried to do was the opposite of what he said to do.
The fact is, your statement shows you just want money. And money just is not so hard to get. That alone should give you a clue that God is not happy with you. (Even though I believe all of your story is not true.)
Also, you claim to be knowledgeable of some manner of severe crimes, which you are not going to the authorities on. How shall I guess you may not have monetary profit from these crimes, as long as you do not go to the authorities?
Knowledge of such crimes and not reporting them are themselves severe felonies.
Anyway, all you care about is money, not health, not peace, not happiness, not long life… so why are you even discussing the matter? There are people who really want more in life then just money.
Psychopaths just want money.
I don’t know anyone who just wants money just for the sake of greed.
All these things said, people do not choose to be in the dark. God chooses. Not people. This is very clear doctrine.
Your heart is very, very hard, at least, what this fake persona is saying all the time, and for such, they do not have life nor understanding, but just lists of rules, ‘do this, don’t do that’. Which you still have.
You may claim to nobility, to fool people, but when you leave your supposed faith merely because of money… that means your heart is in a truly terrible state. I know you usually will not be upfront and bold about this, but here you are, and in other places. Some who are greedy are dumber then you and always upfront about it. Like Mexican cartel gunners and gang members of all sorts. Money, money, money.
im all for positive and negative reinforcement. aka rewarding or earning or gaining or giving (praise hug point reward) for positive behaviour and negative (removal or denial of a thing) for less positive behaviour. which is very behavioural management of me. im not perfect it doesnt always work but it does teach some good lessons. and as long as hugs and praise have value im all for it!