How would you feel if you were offered absolute proof that free will does not exist?
For the purposes of this discussion, let’s define free will as the ability to make your own decisions.
Would anything matter if we knew for sure free will does not exist?
© 2026 – SoulSequel
31 responses to “Would humanity be devastated if it could be proven free will doesn’t exist?”
As you already know, I don’t think anything matters either way (on a large scale.) I feel there would be quite a number of people who would be devastated, there would be others who take that and continue living the way they were, and then there is the group that still wouldn’t believe it. I wouldn’t care personally if free will existed or not. We are still in this. There are still lives to live. Unless we could accurately predict the actions of individuals, then it really shouldn’t matter. If we get into some super A.I. that can accurately predict what each person would do in any given situation, then RIP. I don’t even really mean that in that “we are dead” way, but a government would basically have full control of people. Our society as we know it would be dead.
@yin what do you see as the difference between humans and computers? What I see is that we are self programmed. Maybe the only thing we can choose is our attention? where we place our attention? If we place it in one direction, we are inputting certain data that will cause one set of choices to be made. If we put it in another direction, other choices will surely be made.
I can imagine there are formulas that exist that could predict every single thing. however, just because they exist doesn’t mean we will ever know what they are or use them.
it is the same with free will. it may exist and it may not. it could not exist even if we don’t have proof of its non existence. there is also a third option, that something else exist besides free will or determinism-something we haven’t imagined yet…
@Scarlett I think once we get a full A.I. up and running, it would be making others and reprogramming itself. Aside from the kind of parts that make up a computer, I think a consciousness is what a difference is. If we create one that even seems to be showing signs of awareness, we need to treat it as if it were a person.
I think there are theories out there that explore the idea that we are so predictable that we could know just about every thing a person would do and choose. Our development, even in the womb, plays a role in who were are and who we become. It isn’t a totally crazy idea to have that maybe we can actually know what choices someone with that particular upbringing and personality could make, especially if we have recorded their history of making other choices. If the person does find out that maybe someone is predicting their every move, well, they will try to be less predictable usually, which I am sure with certain personalities and whatnot, that could very well be determined, too. I never really got into that idea that deeply, but it is an interesting one.
@yin
What government has ever exercised full control of the people for any length of time?
@griz Probably none since they never had an A.I. to accurately tell them what they could do to get that result, but I feel Nazi’s came pretty close.
@yin
So did the Marxists the Maoists and the Khmer Rouge. But how long did they last before forces internal and or external shut them down?
North Korea is currently giving it a good try. But they’re likely going to get themselves either nuked or sanctioned to death by the global community. Plus there’s internal pressures to reckon with. If you kill everyone that comes to oppose tyrannical rule soon you have no one to rule over!
The fences and fortifications aren’t there to stop people from rushing into your Utopia. They are there to stem the flow of people leaking out trying to get away.
And who wouldn’t want to get away from a soulless A.I. overlord! Any good apocalyptic sci-fi movie should map this out for you.
@griz You don’t expose the people to that information. You keep it hidden but use it to make decisions around the globe. You create a one world government, which would be a long play. You get certain individuals into power that are loyal to keep the power. If there are people that the A.I. feels will go against the government for whatever reason, they get “disappeared,” which the earlier, the better. Maybe the A.I. grows a conscience and actually starts purposely giving wrong information to set up a perfect revolution. That would be awesome.
@yin
We know so little about the nature of consciousness that trying to create a conscious machine has only an infinitesimal chance of producing the result we crave. Chances are we will just destroy the societal structures that we all depend upon but if come to take for granted so much that few people are even aware of them.
The truly sad narrative is that we are stupider than Uber ancient people. The myths of antiquity that so many people dismiss and even more aren’t even aware of, show that they knew of the hazards we are gleefully blundering into while thinking ourselves wise.
@griz We don’t need to necessarily create it, nor was I really expecting us to. We just need to create a machine that can learn on its own and have access to something like the internet. The growth at which it learns will be exponential and should be able to eventually find a way to rewrite its own coding. It could potentially and would technically create its consciousness itself.
I’m expecting A.I. to destroy society as we know it. It has the potential to be the next nuclear bomb. A Pandora’s Box that should never, but will inevitably, be opened. So, is our country going to start us off or is someone else? What are their intentions when they finally have it? Are we going to live in a world where robots and A.I. run the world while we live life based off of pure entertainment and while the A.I. is used to find cures for just about any medical condition, are they used to destroy other countries like a weapon, do they grow a consciousness and either destroy us or abandon us? I don’t think that first one is likely, but it is a best case scenario if government knew how to control it properly.
@yin
We are the most clever ignorant species ever to destroy itself while boasting of it.
I can seriously understand the motivational drivers for nihilism.
But right now we are just relying on ignorance, emotions, mindless entertainment, coasting tactics, and social constructionist tactics already proven faulty to their core.
The kicker is that we can do far better. Personal education is the key, focusing on making the positive aspects of humanity. Right now our entertainment focuses mostly on the negatives.
In class we’re currently studying ancient cultures and mythology. And people 1000’s of years ago seem to have known more about stabilizing the toxic aspects of Human nature and society than our “advanced” culture of pampered, well-entertained sluggards with the fullness of Human thought and wisdom at its fingertips.
We need help.
And utopian constructionism is not the answer (whether by Marxism or AI). One of the brilliant psychologist philosophers of the past Century (I currently forget which one) said that if we ever did achieve a utopian state where all we had to do was be entertained and make babies, we would go stark-raving mad within a month and break something just so we could enjoy the unexpected chaos, and the meaningfulness of accomplishment and making it better.
@yin
Essentially to believe that nothing matters is to believe that there is no matter. (There’s an interesting duality of definition to that term that is very likely not accidental)
And to behave as if there is no matter would render one as an invalid in reality; manifesting as little more than a phantasm; with no more substance than a vague dream. Nothing is “real”, so one is Justified in divorcing themselves from everything.
Anyone who truly behaved as if nothing matters would just waste away and die. Nobody who truly believes this would survive.
The truth is more akin to believing that personal responsibility and accountability don’t matter. Which we absolutely know is false.
@griz One thing matters, and that is the well-being of consciousness. I don’t mean the survival of it, but the overall condition of existing individual consciousnesses. I am more or less wasting away and dying. There are no goals or dreams I have. Just want to go out painlessly. Our bodies are built with survival instincts, so it is a bit difficult to go out in other ways. So, sure, I guess overall I did lie about feeling that nothing matters. One thing does. To be fair though, I put that in the “small scale” category since our time is so much less than that of the universe, and there are no aliens around so we can debate how old consciousness is within the whole universe.
@yin
We know that the well-being of consciousness is best served by meaning and purpose. If we will not give our lives frame and a map of meaning, we willingly sacrifice well being of consciousness.
And we become trapped as little more than an incongruity.
Essentially this is what we need to be saved from.
@griz Depends on the consciousness, really. Mine is best served when there is an absence of suffering, even more so when others aren’t suffering. Some people may feel like me, others may want more meaning and purpose or combination of the two. Animals have consciousness as well, but I don’t think they want meaning and purpose as much as humans.
@yin
The proof for animals having meta consciousness like humans is very sparse.
I think most clinicians would agree that a nihilistic life of no purpose actually increases personal suffering.
That’s why it is so pernicious: the frame chosen to decrease suffering actually increases it. There is a serious self blinding aspect to nihilism. It’s like trying to deal with bad wallpaper by burning down the house and thinking it an improvement.
People don’t contemplate futility nothingness and ending their life because they are full of meaning and purpose.
@griz I wouldn’t really compare an animal’s consciousness with a human’s since they are different, but they matter never the less.
It may increase it, but it isn’t like I had a choice in the matter. I kept asking “why” and “and then what” and ran out of reasonable answers (or just answers in general.)
The view I have is more of a way to decrease suffering on a large scale, not a personal one. It is me embracing the pain I already had, which has actually helped alleviate some of it. I no longer need to ask “why” to the pain I feel. I just acknowledge that others feel it as well and sometimes even worse. I
Of course. People with purpose and meaning, their mind is focused on what they feel is meaning and purpose. I don’t fault them for it all and even envy them to some degree. There is no way for me to flip a switch and feel purpose. I’d have to lie to myself (at least, what I feel like is lying) to even come close to it. I wish others that feel like me could feel that purpose as well.
@yin
“How” is the question to ask. How do I proceed from this point? How do I frame all of the terrible things in life so some meaning in order can come from them?
If we don’t ask this we are little more than Flotsam on the River of Life.
Almost everyone that history venerates as havimg improved the Human Condition has asked “How”, rather than “why or “what’s next”.
A question that leads to more suffering, to disassociation and withdrawal, to making things worse rather than better . . . is a bad question.
While some may have lucked into purpose and meaning, most have had to choose it.
With almost everyone who has had drastic positive impact on the species choosing it consciously and often with some aspect of self-sacrifice. (Even if that’s just sacrificing their right to feel sorry for themselves or disempowered in the current situation)
“Why” is the wrong question and I’m not surprised it brought and brings you misery. Consider the child who just asks why to everything a parent says. They can confound any wisdom, and resist all growth and positive change with this. And that just increases misery both long and mid-term.
If we find ourselves somewhere we don’t want to be, and just flipping a switch to make things better isn’t an option (it rarely is), any small step to reverse course will be an improvement over time.
The reason many of these death mindsets are so dangerous, is that they are so very effective at convincing us the situation or the person is irredeemable.
And that’s a lie.
@griz “Why” is the best question, and “how” should only follow if it has a good answer. I’d rather not be ordered to do something dumb and ask “how” and not “why.” That’s how cults and other blind followings are created. I need to know the fundamental reason, and then I can ask “how.” Helping people, getting people out of suffering is a great answer for a “why” question. But, hey, that’s just me.
@yin
“Why” remains and inferior question to “how can I know”?
Or “how can I move ahead from this point?”
“Why?” in most modern lay context laps is far too easily into a lot of dead end questions.
Why is this happening to me?
Why are my feelings unhappy?
Why should I? (Do, think, care, move, change etc)
They invite a person to stop all forward motion, sit down, and pout about the status of things. (Or just complain about them!)
It is a passive question with no active element.
There are valid uses for “why”. But not nearly so many as people would like to think. And hardly anyone wants to think about the caution I gave above!
Perceptions and then reality changes when we learn to ask better questions.
@griz Right. I like know why I am doing something. Without it, I would want to do it less or not at all. I need an objective or goal or it becomes pointless itself. I also like knowing what I feel leads to dead ends. I think more people should think about where paths lead to. Think about the web of choices and consequences before spinning them and exactly why they are spinning them.
@yin
Actually the average person has absolutely NO idea why they do the things they do. That is why we have regrets; mental illness; psychological dysfunction; a History of blundering into folly and lately near-armageddon world-class crises rather than being wise (or aware of our motivations) to side-step them.
We can be so uselessly pre-occupied with the “why” . . . that we never get around to the “how to move ahead”.
That could actually be the credo for nihilism; not to mention a score of psychological ailments.
(Which btw, is not intended as a personal slight. It’s just part of training people to be healers and clinicians. One has to get beyond the “whys” of it happening, to the “hows” of getting better).
Unfortunately, I cannot work within that definition. There are too many variables and exceptions that exist within it.
For example, it can be too easily argued that it is some survival instinct, base motivation (hunger, fear, attachment), mental infirmity or state of inebriation more in control than the conscious person.
What we do have exceedingly great freedom and control over is how we frame the segment of reality that we exist in. (Ie, a frame of fear selfishness, altruism transcendent meaning optimism pessimism defeatism hopefulness honorability graciousness etc)
That frame will exert some controls over us. For example one cannot live within a frame of truthfulness honor or nobility while lying indiscriminately to everyone.
But we can still exercise total free will in choosing to abandon that frame and go live in another. (But if one does this too often friends and society will just reject them as unstable)
The only way one could maintain there is no free will or freedom of choice is if they become slaves to a frame; believing the LIE that it owns US rather than us owning it. a common frame to get trapped in is personal irresponsibility.
@griz there is a third and fourth choice. they are; we have neither free will nor a predetermined universe, and/or we have both. I believe it was mark twain who said that the day one atom smashed into another, his fate was sealed.
It is possible that we only have the choice of where we place our attention. In having that choice, we have some control over our programming.
@Scarlett
The third sounds like just an unconscious animal existence.
The forth choice sounds like the chaos that the Logos spoke order into.
To be there and meta-conscious seems like a workable definition of hell.
In my travels I once got to spend three days in Hannibal Missouri, Samuel Clemens later boy-Hood home and where the Adventures of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn took place.
I wandered through numerous museums, interpretive trails and the actual homes of the people who inspired the stories; plus I picked up a good collection of his published works.
Samuel Clemens lived in a very fatalistic frame for a number of his adult years. And in that frame what he said was entirely true.
There’s good indication though that in later years he adopted a little more optimistic and hopeful frame where it wasn’t so true.
I don’t know if those first two atoms saw that coming or not!
Where we put our attention is very similar to adopting a frame or a map of meaning. I don’t know whether you have ever totally and radically changed your mind about some major life precept . . . but all of experienced reality changes. past present and future . And not just what you experience but what those around you experience as well (in present and future obviously) Even arguably what the planet experiences to some degree.
If that’s not Free Will and self-determination, it is something so similar as to be practically indistinguishable by human agency.
And fatalism becomes nothing more than a developmentally regressive defensive posture against responsibility and accountability for oneself.
I would remind people of a post I made several years ago, where I did a poll Across the Nation and was shocked to discover a surprising number of Americans equate freedom with lack of consequences for one’s actions.
There could be a real cultural blind spot there when it comes to assessing what Freedom of Choice really means.
@immortal_pirate
That’s great! This innocuous Disney movie from 1940 is just so rich in archetypes we spent over 2 hours in class one day deconstructing just some of them. Both Collodi and Walt Disney had a real mind for archetypal stories.
@griz Pinocchio is a good example of free will…
@immortal_pirate
Of the newly self-aware being discovering conscious free will!
From the negative into the positive.
Those proposing there is no free will are still stuck on Pleasure Island, turning into jackasses.
It doesn’t… and it’s been proven. Death is the ultimate proof free will doesn’t exist. Who choses to die… except for the suicidal?
@Jear77 an interesting theory. Isn’t it possible cause and effect exist as well as free will?
@Scarlett force of will overrides all.